Griever

[Seraphor]

I agree. But if Ultimecia was Rinoa it would make sense for her to summon Squall's spirit animal and that plot point would serve the purpose of making that connection. But I won't open that can of worms here, I don't think Griever being summoned means much lol

He still looks cool though, and I wouldn't mind seeing him as a trial.

The japanese script literally says she reads Squalls mind and thats how she summons Griever, absolutely no need to her to be Rinoa and cause the plot hole of her killing her younger self, while defeating the point of the core themes of the game.

[TheHeavenAbyss]

The japanese script literally says she reads Squalls mind and thats how she summons Griever, absolutely no need to her to be Rinoa and cause the plot hole of her killing her younger self, while defeating the point of the core themes of the game.

I didn't know about the Japanese script. I understand there is no need. But about the plot point, almost no story deals with time shenanigans that well, and it could still work with them being the same person by making Ultimecia being Rinoa from an alternate future where Squall never came back to save her from the SeeD. It doesn't have to be, of course.

I just think it would be better because ultimately, Ultimecia is not that interesting and I think that would add a layer of depth to her. And it would fit with the theme of the game if she was a Rinoa that was consumed by solitute and went mad, and also the fight against time, since they would basically be defeating the bad future by making sure the present follows a different path (and Griever as a representation of the fight of Squall against himself would still fit, even if it was summoned by evil Rinoa).

Not that I think any of this is in the game, I just think it would be a cool idea.

[Gemina]

I just think it would be better because ultimately, Ultimecia is not that interesting and I think that would add a layer of depth to her.

I find that villains who use possession and/or personification is difficult to pull off if it is not established early. We go a certain length of the story only to find out that the villain we've been building up to hate was actually someone/something else entirely. Imagine if Ilberd wasn't actually Ilberd after everything he did.

I find the best villains to not be innately evil, but relatable. They have an opposing PoV that makes logical sense, or driven to madness when their good deeds are punished. Gaius is a great example in FFXIV of a villain I totally respect, and I absolutely understand what drives him. My version of the WoL carries a ton of guilt being the one responsible for ending his life. Villains like Thordan and Zenos are just monsters, and are not fit to rule.

We just don't find out early enough that Ultimecia is from the future using sorceress' from the past as vessels since it is a major plot reveal, and at that point in the story there isn't a whole lot of time to learn and sympathize with her motives.

[Burningskull]

Looking at pictures of Griever, it's been a while since I played FF8, he does look like a Ronso. Maybe we will get a Ronso beast tribe.

[Seraphor]

Looking at pictures of Griever, it's been a while since I played FF8, he does look like a Ronso. Maybe we will get a Ronso beast tribe.

Would be a good avenue for a future BLU questline too.

[Seraphor]

I didn't know about the Japanese script. I understand there is no need. But about the plot point, almost no story deals with time shenanigans that well, and it could still work with them being the same person by making Ultimecia being Rinoa from an alternate future where Squall never came back to save her from the SeeD. It doesn't have to be, of course.

I just think it would be better because ultimately, Ultimecia is not that interesting and I think that would add a layer of depth to her. And it would fit with the theme of the game if she was a Rinoa that was consumed by solitute and went mad, and also the fight against time, since they would basically be defeating the bad future by making sure the present follows a different path (and Griever as a representation of the fight of Squall against himself would still fit, even if it was summoned by evil Rinoa).

Not that I think any of this is in the game, I just think it would be a cool idea.

The story is based around a static time loop, where what happens will always happen, and what happened was alwats going to happen. Its the crux of the whole theme of 'fate' in the game, and is what makes Ultimecia a tragic villain who brought about her own demise by attempting to defy her own fate.
There are no 'alternate futures'.

It's actually one of the few types of time travel plot that's entirely internally consistent with the only paradox being the 'grandfather paradox'.

[SeeDirector]

All this FF8 talk makes me so happy ahah. But yes please something more from that title would be welcome ^^

[Seraphor]

Gaius is a great example in FFXIV of a villain I totally respect, and I absolutely understand what drives him. My version of the WoL carries a ton of guilt being the one responsible for ending his life. Villains like Thordan and Zenos are just monsters, and are not fit to rule.

Umm...

Also I think Thordan was somewhat relatable, he at least had a valid motive and that to me puts him more in line with Gaius than Zenos.

[Gemina]

Umm...

Also I think Thordan was somewhat relatable, he at least had a valid motive and that to me puts him more in line with Gaius than Zenos.

That's cool. I mean the guy's a deceitful tyrant, racist, and megalomaniac, but if you can find something relatable about his motives your perception might be better than mine. I can even relate to Nidhogg before I can Thordan, but my views might be clouded by his treachery and life-term damage to the WoL. Like I said before, I felt really bad about how things ended with Gaius. With Thordan though, I felt nothing but justice.

[Vahlnir]

That's cool. I mean the guy's a deceitful tyrant, racist, and megalomaniac, but if you can find something relatable about his motives your perception might be better than mine. I can even relate to Nidhogg before I can Thordan, but my views might be clouded by his treachery and life-term damage to the WoL. Like I said before, I felt really bad about how things ended with Gaius. With Thordan though, I felt nothing but justice.

Yeah. Nidhogg at least had a justifiable reason to declare war on Ishgard. His sister was murdered in cold blood. Thordan, while smart, was crazy. The Ascians played a bit of a role there, but still.