whats wrong with wow?

[Abriael]

So what's the assertion here then? That because the game is simple to get into and progress all the way to the level cap, it's of poor design and quality? We're going to ignore the parts where genuine mastery and quality of play are required to be successful (eg. hard mode raiding and high-rated PvP)?

Lol at "genuine mastery" that's some "genuine" hyperbole. If you think people that do high end raiding in wow are "genuine masters" i wonder what you think of the people that execute perfect drifting shows on Gran Turismo 5, or even harder racing sims.
Those parts come too late in the game to be any influential on the composition of the wow community, or can be completely ignored (pvp).

You seem to have a penchant to warping what people say. I never said that is "poor quality" design (the poor quality is elsewhere, the ridiculous storylines and characters, the laughable art direction, and so forth), but it does ensure that the game is popular regardless of quality.
It's actually a very smart design choice to grab the target Blizzard wants and more money. Unfortunately it comes with drawbacks, primarily the extremely poor quality of the community, but that impacts only a percentage of the players, for sure not Blizzard.

I mean, what I'm taking from all of this, particularly with this sentence--"No matter if you're a third grader or a soccer mom that has trouble even with the wii"--is that FF gamers are akin to nobles and are expressing their disdain for the peasantry, as if they're somehow better than them. Is that your position?

You're the one making a "wow vs FFXI" comparison. I'm talking only about wow.
Many other games on the market are much more selective early on with their target. This means that their community will inevitably benefit from an higher percentage of players that are actually prepared to interact with an online community, as third graders and similar examples simply arent, most of the time. And they get frustrated and pushed away by mechanics that they don't have the patience to cope with.

[Quanta]

Lol at "genuine mastery" that's some "genuine" hyperbole. If you think people that do high end raiding in wow are "genuine masters" i wonder what you think of the people that execute perfect drifting shows on Gran Turismo 5, or even harder racing sims.
Those parts come too late in the game to be any influential on the composition of the wow community, or can be completely ignored (pvp).

I agree that those sections of the game aren't representative of the playerbase as a whole; however, it's those elements, along with the general ease of play that let the third graders and soccer moms enter the PC gaming scene, that keep the game popular for pretty much anyone willing to drop $15/month on it.

As far as mastery goes, I don't really give a shit what the learning curve for perfect drifting is, just so long as I can complete most of the races and unlock a decent spread of vehicles. If perfect drift is a requirement just to win the first few races, that's where I'd start raising concerns and wondering why a large company like Sony would make a racing sim that only the hardest of the hardcore racing sim players could get into.

You seem to have a penchant to warping what people say. I never said that is "poor quality" design (the poor quality is elsewhere, the ridiculous storylines and characters, the laughable art direction, and so forth), but it does ensure that the game is popular regardless of quality.
It's actually a very smart design choice to grab the target Blizzard wants and more money. Unfortunately it comes with drawbacks, primarily the extremely poor quality of the community, but that impacts only a percentage of the players, for sure not Blizzard.

The quality of the community is dependent on where you go, who you ask, and how you intend to spend your time. The WoW forums, with perhaps the exception of the server forums themselves, are probably the last place you want to look for the good people in the community. If PvE is your thing, you'll probably want to head to a place like Elitist Jerks or Tankspot, or some other forum that doesn't put up with wankers who don't back up their claims that X is OP/UP without the numbers. If you PvP, head over to ArenaJunkies, where you're going to need an arena rating of 2200+ just to post in the good section of the forums. RPers can try one of the LJ communities. If your expectation is to jump straight in-game and have the good parts of the community just jump right out at you, welcoming you to the game and congratulating you on making the right choice, you're just setting yourself up for failure.

As far as story and art direction go, it should be obvious from both that the Warcraft universe doesn't take itself seriously, so why should the players? We're talking about a franchise that was able to make a transition into the comic book space, which are often the most ridiculous universes in modern fiction, and it fits in perfectly. The kind of larger-than-life shit that Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman have to deal with is no different from the larger-than-life shit that Thrall, Jaina, and Varian Wrynn have to deal with. It's all good, just so long as you understand what it is you're dealing with and enjoy it for what it is.

Many other games on the market are much more selective early on with their target. This means that their community will inevitably benefit from an higher percentage of players that are actually prepared to interact with an online community, as third graders and similar examples simply arent, most of the time. And they get frustrated and pushed away by mechanics that they don't have the patience to cope with.

I would argue that adults are more likely to get pushed away by unfamiliar mechanics as opposed to kids, simply because adults are less likely to afford themselves a mistake or two, and are therefore more likely to beat themselves up when things go wrong. Kids don't seem to care as much when they screw up, and just focus on doing better next time, though we're also more forgiving to kids when they make mistakes as compared to adults. Perhaps that's something to take into consideration the next time the barista gets your coffee order wrong.

[Linnear]

hmmm Quanra actually knows what he is talking about... can it be... I dare to only hope.