whats wrong with wow?

[Quanta]

It's not as a farfetched comparison, from a marketing point of view, as you may think.

Everything in WoW isn't designed just to be "fun", there are tons of MMORPGs there that are very well designed on the "fun" aspects, probably even better than wow. Yet they aren't as popular. Not even nearly.
This without mentioning that "fun" is relative to the target, and not an absolute parameter.

Reality shows are specifically designed to cater to the lowest common denominator of human behavioral patters, so they are enjoyed by a large demographic of people.

WoW is designed to appease the lowest common denominator of gamers. No matter if you're a third grader or a soccer mom that has trouble even with the wii or if you have a PC from world war 2, the majority of WoW's activity are designed so that you can thrive at the game, and when you "hit the wall" (on part of the endgame, that's a bit more challenging), you have invested too much into the game to quit.

It's a simple marketing strategy. To make something mainstream you design it so that it has the widest target possible. Of course such a wide target has it's disadvantages (the quality of the community is one, the extremely and childish generic backstory and art direction is another), but those disadvantages affect majorly only the most demanding and discerning of the customerbase. And those are the vast minority compared to a mainstream target.

So what's the assertion here then? That because the game is simple to get into and progress all the way to the level cap, it's of poor design and quality? We're going to ignore the parts where genuine mastery and quality of play are required to be successful (eg. hard mode raiding and high-rated PvP)?

I mean, what I'm taking from all of this, particularly with this sentence--"No matter if you're a third grader or a soccer mom that has trouble even with the wii"--is that FF gamers are akin to nobles and are expressing their disdain for the peasantry, as if they're somehow better than them. Is that your position?

[Kilta_Firelotus]

So what's the assertion here then? That because the game is simple to get into and progress all the way to the level cap, it's of poor design and quality? We're going to ignore the parts where genuine mastery and quality of play are required to be successful (eg. hard mode raiding and high-rated PvP)?

I mean, what I'm taking from all of this, particularly with this sentence--"No matter if you're a third grader or a soccer mom that has trouble even with the wii"--is that FF gamers are akin to nobles and are expressing their disdain for the peasantry, as if they're somehow better than them. Is that your position?

not with all the addon ppl use for the stupidest stuff. And yes WoW is too easy to get into (unless your not a pc gamer then it can be hard). It brought in too many different gamers which do not mesh well. I didn't feel like WoW was challenging enough. I can die 1mil times and most ima need to do is repair gear at an npc. I saw literally 99% of WoW just be running dead.

[Eolrid]

It all comes back down to different preferences.

So what's the assertion here then? That because the game is simple to get into and progress all the way to the level cap, it's of poor design and quality? We're going to ignore the parts where genuine mastery and quality of play are required to be successful (eg. hard mode raiding and high-rated PvP)?

I mean, what I'm taking from all of this, particularly with this sentence--"No matter if you're a third grader or a soccer mom that has trouble even with the wii"--is that FF gamers are akin to nobles and are expressing their disdain for the peasantry, as if they're somehow better than them. Is that your position?

not with all the addon ppl use for the stupidest stuff. And yes WoW is too easy to get into (unless your not a pc gamer then it can be hard). It brought in too many different gamers which do not mesh well. I didn't feel like WoW was challenging enough. I can die 1mil times and most ima need to do is repair gear at an npc. I saw literally 99% of WoW just be running dead.

I agree with both of these comments, actually.

WoW is not of poor design. If it was -- I mean, if it was something like a Rogue Warrior or an E.T. or, heck, even a Superman 64, people would ridicule it, hate it, and not play it. But tons of people enjoy WoW, despite the hate it receives, and whether or not you like it as well is just a matter of preference.

Regardless of the new MMO audience it brought in, and regardless of whether or not certain demographics know any better (like was mentioned, soccer moms and younger kids), if the game truly sucked, they wouldn't play it, either.

Like I said, I also don't enjoy WoW. I do find it shallow and boring, just like most MMOs. But I can appreciate that it did a lot of things right and earned a very large audience because of it.

I also hate, hate, hate add-ons, but that's a whole other topic.

[Kilta_Firelotus]

being a good player isn't about being in the top percentile. Good players learn the game, know their classes w/o having to be told what to do when a boss fight comes. They know how to set up plans before a fight. And follow through with it.

Good players also help out other to be good players by giving tips and advice. Maybe show them the ropes.

Good players should be based on what addons you use. Or how fast you can down something. Anyone can kill anything in a game.

Good players know its a game and just have fun. Bad players needlessly brag over the dumbest stuff. And feel a player is only as gpood as the addons he got.

[Quanta]

not with all the addon ppl use for the stupidest stuff. And yes WoW is too easy to get into (unless your not a pc gamer then it can be hard). It brought in too many different gamers which do not mesh well. I didn't feel like WoW was challenging enough. I can die 1mil times and most ima need to do is repair gear at an npc. I saw literally 99% of WoW just be running dead.

It was never meant to be super-challenging: Blizzard's entire design philosophy (and this applies to all of their games) is "Easy to learn; difficult to master", and it shines forth in pretty much any game you play. WoW is designed, as pointed out, for just about anybody to get into, but not everyone is going to be able to down all hard modes in <2 months or be in the top .5% of arena/rated-BG teams unless they're really good at the game, and are surrounded by other players who are also really good, and I have a hard time buying that you are part of that group. SC2 is the same way: anybody can pick it up and play, complete the campaign, play a bit of ladder, but only the best players are going to find their way into the Grandmaster (aka Top 200) league.

[Kilta_Firelotus]

It was never meant to be super-challenging: Blizzard's entire design philosophy (and this applies to all of their games) is "Easy to learn; difficult to master", and it shines forth in pretty much any game you play. WoW is designed, as pointed out, for just about anybody to get into, but not everyone is going to be able to down all hard modes in <2 months or be in the top .5% of arena/rated-BG teams unless they're really good at the game, and are surrounded by other players who are also really good, and I have a hard time buying that you are part of that group. SC2 is the same way: anybody can pick it up and play, complete the campaign, play a bit of ladder, but only the best players are going to find their way into the Grandmaster (aka Top 200) league.

and I care all about that.... because.......

sorry I play mmo fir fun not be in the ultra elite. And sorry being ultra elite is doing stuff W/O addons. Sorry but real gamers don't use cheat modes to down "hard modes/ bosses"

[Ostia]

and I care all about that.... because.......

sorry I play mmo fir fun not be in the ultra elite. And sorry being ultra elite is doing stuff W/O addons. Sorry but real gamers don't use cheat modes to down "hard modes/ bosses"

Add ons are not cheat mode, so i dont know what you are talking about

[Abriael]

Add ons are not cheat mode, so i dont know what you are talking about

They most definitely give players that make an extensive use of them a clear advantage over people that don't. So if they aren't a cheat they get very near to it.

The main negative point with addons is that their existance forces the developer to design encounters taking in account that they will be used, creating a further divide with people that don't use them. The problem has been mitigated by the ban on commercial addons, but it still remains as an underlying problem in encounter design.

[Rhianu]

They most definitely give players that make an extensive use of them a clear advantage over people that don't. So if they aren't a cheat they get very near to it.

Wrong. Just because something gives an advantage, that doesn't automatically mean it's a cheat. In order for anything to qualify as a cheat, it has to give an advantage AND be against the rules. By your logic, you could say that playing a BLM in FFXI was cheating because it gave you an advantage over some of the underpowered jobs, like PUP or DRG.

The main negative point with addons is that their existance forces the developer to design encounters taking in account that they will be used, creating a further divide with people that don't use them. The problem has been mitigated by the ban on commercial addons, but it still remains as an underlying problem in encounter design.

That's actually a GOOD thing. Thanks to addons, Blizzard has had to alter the type of battle tactics they use in designing enemy encounters, which has resulted in deeper strategies being implemented into the fights.

But you don't ever need any addons to win a boss fight (although some guild leaders will try to insist that you do). No, the truth is that if you're good enough, you can do everything with just the default interface if you really want to.

[Ostia]

They most definitely give players that make an extensive use of them a clear advantage over people that don't. So if they aren't a cheat they get very near to it.

The main negative point with addons is that their existance forces the developer to design encounters taking in account that they will be used, creating a further divide with people that don't use them. The problem has been mitigated by the ban on commercial addons, but it still remains as an underlying problem in encounter design.

No they do not, for example DMG metter gives no advantage, nor does threat meter, for the default UI already gives warning of when you are about to lose threat if you are a tank, or you are taking it if you are a DPS/Healer, all threat meter does is give an extra warning, it does not cast taunt or anything like that