Lorebook: Rapiers

[Wyssahtyn]

Could someone share or perhaps confirm the existence of excerpts of rapier lore from the second lorebook that point to fencing having Ishgardian elements/origins? I recall reading a comment about such on reddit, but have not been able to confirm it through personal research, particularly since I don't have the lorebook in question.

[Anonymoose]

Good thing you thought to ask here before repeating it. (Rarely the case with reddit! +50 dkp!)

In actuality, the Lore Book II specifically states:

It is interesting to note that, despite distinct Elezen origins, the rapier never became popular in the city-state of Ishgard. This is believed to be a result of the nation's long history of strife with dragonkind—weapons with far more reach, such as the lance, being valued over those better suited for close combat. It was instead the Elezen of Amdapor and Mhach who fled to Gyr Abania following the Fifth Astral Era's great flood who introduced the dueling weapons to the region's red mages and oversaw the eventual addition of the trademark aetherial mediums to their hilts.

[Wyssahtyn]

Thanks for sharing, Anonymoose. I usually attempt to confirm the sources of second hand information. I do find it interesting that it never became popular in Ishgard though. Figured that the nobles would have jumped on it for dueling or as a status symbol.

[Bright-Flower]

Glad I saw this. I saw the tidbits of the rapier coming from elezen and assumed that those elezen were also tied to what would become Ishgard but seems that's not quite right.

Thanks for sharing, Anonymoose. I usually attempt to confirm the sources of second hand information. I do find it interesting that it never became popular in Ishgard though. Figured that the nobles would have jumped on it for dueling or as a status symbol.

While there was some posturing though, there wasn't ever really much actual infighting was there? They had tourneys but given the thousand year war with dragons, I can see why they would focus on weapons more effective against them. Especially with a lot of Ishgard nobility seeming to lead from the front and be knights/fighters themselves rather than sitting on the sidelines. They seem to get much of their posturing and glory from kiling dragons.

[Kalise]

Thanks for sharing, Anonymoose. I usually attempt to confirm the sources of second hand information. I do find it interesting that it never became popular in Ishgard though. Figured that the nobles would have jumped on it for dueling or as a status symbol.

Well, the Machinist storyline kind of shows how the nobles look down on anything that isn't being a Knight or Lancer/Dragoon.

Meaning, if they wanted to duel or have a status symbol, they'd likely duel with knight gear, sword and board style. With status symbol being a fancy longsword and shield adorned with the family crest.

Even more so if you recall that the actual houses decent from knights, them becoming nobles because Haldrath decided to forgo taking over after his father died and instead become the Azure Dragoon. So it's quite likely that knightly arms and combat persisted as a core tenet of the houses.

[Bright-Flower]

Speaking of Ishgard...did they ever fill in the gaps on how they ended up with the Archbishop as the head of state? Did the church just grow in power over the years? Is Thordan VII not actually a descendant of Thordan the I, but more like how Popes of the catholic church choose a new name?

[ObsidianFire]

I'd imagine it was like that. Given some of the crazy stories about Popes and turning back Genghis Khan while all of Europe was falling apart politically... I can easily see the Halonic Church being seen as being more reliable then a bunch of squabbling noble houses were. Let that kind of thinking go on long enough and...

[CaesarCV]

I'm away from my Lorebook at the moment unfortunately, but it's fairly correct that the Ishgardian Orthodox Church got more and more power over time. The Lorebook describes that the earliest versions of the church (and indeed the scripture according to the Scholasticate quests) focus on the 'maternal' aspects of the church such as spiritual guidance, charity, and religious contemplation. The realities of the Dragonsong war, however, gave rise to a 'paternal' aspect involving direct governance, martial skill, and 'justice' against heretics. With Ishgard stuck in a state of Total War for nearly its entire modern existence, a bureaucratic body was necessary to maintain logistics and continue prosecuting the war against the dragons. The Church proved more than capable of this task, and built up the necessary logistical and governing bodies over time, with the Archbishop soon becoming the most powerful figure in the land. It was seen as better for this task due to both its holy status, and the fact that it was not directly aligned with any particular family or group of nobles. However, with the revolutions and new discoveries at the end of Heavensward, the Church's 'paternal' aspect is being heavily dialed back, and the church is going through reforms to emphasize its more charitable, 'maternal' aspect.

[Avisari]

Good thing you thought to ask here before repeating it. (Rarely the case with reddit! +50 dkp!)

In actuality, the Lore Book II specifically states:

Stumbled on this, and since there's a non-zero chance the comment that spurred it was one I made like three weeks ago replying to someone temporarily away from the game asking if book 2 had any RDM tidbits...

Absolutely deferring to you on anything lore! In my mild defense in case it WAS my comment tho: It was a couple dozen pages earlier (181) than the Rapier entries, on the Red Mage page, that gave me an Ishgardian implication. The Guespiere was "forged by the Ishgardian forefathers following their colonization of Coerthas" and says that an Elezen who took refuge in Gyr Abania (which I assumed to be the Count Ganelon mentioned under the Murgleis as credited with instructing the first red mages) offered to teach them "his race's traditional sword techniques." Which was presented as a reason for "the odd similarity between red mage and olden-day Coerthas weapony."

So I had taken that as basically that while Ishgard itself didn't take up the weapon, partly because they're not great for dragon-poking, but that the guy who taught the first red mages how to do it came from (pre-actually-Ishgard) Coerthas

[Anonymoose]

Absolutely deferring to you on anything lore!

On the other hand, if ever your case of debate ammo contains citations that run contrary to anything I say, fire.

The Guespiere was "forged by the Ishgardian forefathers following their colonization of Coerthas" and says that an Elezen who took refuge in Gyr Abania (which I assumed to be the Count Ganelon mentioned under the Murgleis as credited with instructing the first red mages) offered to teach them "his race's traditional sword techniques."

So I had taken that as basically that while Ishgard itself didn't take up the weapon, partly because they're not great for dragon-poking, but that the guy who taught the first red mages how to do it came from (pre-actually-Ishgard) Coerthas

If I'm reading that correctly, only part of it is askew, actually: the assumption that Count Ganelon was himself Coerthan Proto-Ishgardian.

If Count Ganelon taught "the first red mages", then he should have been from amongst the Elezen of Mhach and Amdapor who fled into Gyr Abania during the Sixth Umbral Calamity, right? After the floods of the Sixth Umbral receded, the Elezen were the first to return to Eorzea (many returning from Ilsabard). 350 years later, the first great wave of Hyur would arrive, forcing these Elezen deeper into the continent. One such band of displaced Elezen were those that arrived in Coerthas and waged a turf war with the dragons before a 200 year period of cooperation later scrubbed from Ishgardian history. It was during this period (350 to 550 Sixth Astral) that Guespiere was forged.

So, if I'm reading that right, first the Elezen became the masters of the rapier. Then, eventually, Elezen would end up in Mhach and Amdapor. Then, during the fall of the Fifth Astral Era, such Elezen would end up in Gyr Abania - Count Ganelon among them. Then other Elezen - still masters of the rapier - would move to Coerthas, where one would forge Guespiere. Thus, there are similarities between red mage weapons and some Proto-Ishgardian weapons - not because Count Ganelon was a Proto-Ishgardian, but because both the Proto-Ishgardians and Count Ganelon were descendants of earlier Elezen rapier-wielders. (Hence the line, "For two groups that are otherwise unrelated, such historical context readily explains the odd similarity between red mage and olden-day Coerthas weaponry.")

Then the Dragonsong War purged any notion of wielding rapiers in Ishgard proper.

An aside, it makes you wonder how Ganelon got the title "Count", right? I even made sure that was the intended title. (It was.)