A question about ancient Ivalice's location in the timeline

[Kreyd]

TL;DR:
Cool story and lore. Lots of hints and assumptions. Some details are off from FFT but most of it fits pretty well.

@Damascar

I checked again on this. If I talk to Jenomis and ask him about the Golmore-jungle he states that it's AT LEAST over 1000 years since his ancestor wrote the Durai papers. My bad, sorry...

Also Jonnycbad is right. We should not forget that Return to Ivalice is more like a "Reference" to FFT than an actual sequel. However, after rewatching every cutscene of Return to Ivalice, reading everything I can read on the Prima Vista and working myself through the story of FFXII Tactics on Final Fantasy wikia, I tried to do an complete storyline of the lore of this Raid. And, except for a few details, it does really fit well with the FFT story.

Please remember since I'm playing FF14 in german and never touched any FF12 title, I might got things wrong or spell names different. If any of you have a deeper knowledge of the lore, please feel free to correct me =D


Ancient Ivalise mythology; very long time ago.

The seven kingdoms Zeltennia, Fovoham, Lionel, Limberry, Lesalia, Gallionne and Mullonde fought a war over territory over hundreds of years. At one point the king of Mullonde gathered a huge army and tried to win the war with ancient, forbidden magic, summoning a demon (possibly Ultima, the high Seraph) to win. However the king could not control the demon and was killed. The demon then aims to destroy the human world, but twelve knights, each of them carrying a Zodiac Stone (Auracite) defeated the demon and return peace to the land.

The original legend of the Zodiac Braves is born.

1200 years before Final Fantasy Tactics.

Ajora Glabados was born and due to miracles he was able to perform, called a saint. However the dominant church of Pharism didn't like that and executed him. Mullonde, the center of pharist teachings, was hit by a tidal wave and sank into the sea.
Ajora was in fact the vessel for Ultima herself, trying to summon the Zodiac Braves. It is possible that Ajora or Ultima cast the tidal wave that wiped out Mullonde him/herself, but thats not stated.

With Ajoras death, Ultima was trapped inside him. Ajora's disciples (unknowing of this) began to preach of his divinity, eventually forming the Church of Glabados.

The church later incorporated Saint Ajora into the legend of the Zodiac Braves. They claimed that Saint Ajora led the twelve Zodiac Braves against a demon summoned by the King of Limberry.

Final Fantasy tactics; at least 1000 years ago (probably much older).

In the land of Ivalice, the Order of the Northern Sky and the Order of the Southern Sky wage a war over the throne against each other, known as the War of the Lions.

Delita and his sister Tietra are two orphans, who were adopted by the owner of the house Beoulve, after their parents died of a plague.
Ramza and his sister Alma are the two children of the house Beoulve.
Delita and Ramza become good friends and attend the military academy together.
One day, they save the life of a lesser nobleman named Argath Thadalfus, who later causes the death of Delita's sister Tietra. Ramza and Delita defeat Argath together, then separate their ways.

Ramza learns that the Church of Glabados has incited the war. Their leaders are possesed by the Lucavi and Auracites and plan to resurrect their leader Ultima, which requires a huge blood sacrifice.
While Delita fights in the Lion War and rises to a hero, Ramza secretly fights against the church and the Lucavi and keeps his erstwhile friend's back free.

After the War of the Lions ends, Delita marries Princess Ovelia and becomes king of Ivalice.

The second legend of the Zodiac Braves is born, telling of Delita and his eleven comrades bringing peace to Ivalice.

Orran Durai, a friend of Delita and Ramza, writes down the "true" story, creating the Durai Papers. But since the Glabados Church does look very bad in it, they declare Orran as a heretic and burn him alive and destroy all his writings, except one which is passed down his family.

30 years ago

Garlean Empire took over Dalmasca. The Bangaa Ba'Gamnan and his men fail to save Prince Rashler and Princess Ashelia. Both of them died. Prince Rashler hands Ba'Gamnan his necklace. The necklace of his sister, Princess Ashelia, will later be in the possession of Jenomis and Alma.

Within FF14:

Alma asks us to find her father Jenomis (Arazlam Durai), who intends to reveal the truth about the War of the Lions and the Zodiac Braves, but also beliefs to find a way to resurect his deceased wife. (There are hints that Ultima spoke to Jenomis through the Otius Auracite and gave him this idea)

We travel to the royal city of Rabanastre, defeat the three Lucavi Mateus, Hashmal and Rofocale and find the ruins of Lesalia underground.
Argath Thadalfus (or an image of him created by the Duma Auracit) reappeares as the final boss in Rabanastre, using the Duma to transform himself.
We manage to safe Jenomis, but the Duma and his copy of the Durai Papers are taken away by Ba'Gamnan and his men.

Later on, the Bangaa enter the Prima Vista and ask for our help saving ther boss Ba'Gamnan who seems to be possesed by the Duma. Ba'Gamnan intends to use the Auracite to get revenge on the Garlean Empire and free Dalmasca.
We travel to the Ridorana Lighthouse, defeat the Lucavi Famfrit and Belias, Construct 7 and Ba'Gamnan, who is turned into Yiazmat by the Duma. We take back the Duma and also the necklace of Prince Rasler from Ba'Gamnan. Both necklaces seems to be part of the same Auracit.

We also discover that the Ridorana Lighthouse was once the Clockwork city of Goug. After a battle between Ramzas party and Construct 6 (Construct 7 in the original game) the latter wiped out the middle part of the tower like city and possibly caused the Ridorana Cataract to emerge. It's also stated that the people of Goug left their home after this and became the ancestors of the Garleans.

Later on, we meet Fran, who leads a dalmascian resistance group and ask her to give us access to the Orbonne Monastry, where we believe Ultima was sealed away by Ramza. But now Alma gets possesed by the Otius Auracite and is teleported to Ultima.
We manage to get to the Monastry, but Ultima tricks us and swaps Alma for her brother Ramza.

Back on the Prima Vista we have a transcending flashback and it is revealed, that Ramza, despite beeing a Warrior of Light, didn't have the power to defeat Ultima and gave his own life to seal her away, until someone would rise to defeat Ultima once and for all. The two necklaces of Dalmascian Royal family were made from an Auracite to lead the future hero on his path. Ramza also wanted to be forgotten by the world, thereby noone would try to mess around with the sealed Ultima or the Auracites again.
Orran Durai wrote the Durai Papers. It's also hinted that Alma Beoulve was pregnant by Orran Durai.

We enter Orbonne again defeat Mustardio, Agrias and Cidolfus (which were allies of Ramza and seem to stayed their as some sort of guardians), find the way to the lost ruins of Mullonde where Ultima is sealed and defeat her. The spirit of Ramza Beoulve thanks us and the characters of FFT have a cameo.

Like Jonnycbad mentioned, there are differences in both games lores. Like in FFT Ramza survived the battle against Ultima, while in FFXIV he gave his life so seal her. Or in FFT it was Construct 7 who self-destructed in Goug, while in FF14 it's stated that it was Construct 6 who launched his weapon destroying Goug and causing the Ridorana Cataract. (Another ungodly like weapon in the possession of Garleans. Just great! What could possibly go wrong? xD )

There are still a lot questions. What was Ultima and where did she come from? Another planet or dimension like Cid assumes? Does she have anything to do with the Ascians? Was Ajora a fallen Warrior of Light? Is Fran's boss princess Ashelia? What about the Garlean enter Goug in the last cutszene?

So many questions...LOVE IT!

[YianKutku]

Now, the lore book claims there were at least eight comings of the Zodiac Braves. And it still says "eight" after I tagged it with, "Just making sure: Eight?" so it must mean eight (or Eorzean scholars assume eight is true when it is not). Could it be that there are multiple Calamity-level events happening at one time in multiple places...? Could it be that history is misinterpreting Warrior of Light vs. just some band of heroes worth remembering...?

Adding in another spice into the pot, with the same dialogue box that everyone is getting "more than a thousand summers" from:



Note that Jenomis says "one of your calamities". One of your calamities.

EDIT: Replaced screenshot with a more readable one.

[Dagget]

Interesting article on the subject:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...rrent-stories/

[Daralii]

TL;DR:
Like Jonnycbad mentioned, there are differences in both games lores. Like in FFT Ramza survived the battle against Ultima, while in FFXIV he gave his life so seal her. Or in FFT it was Construct 7 who self-destructed in Goug, while in FF14 it's stated that it was Construct 6 who launched his weapon destroying Goug and causing the Ridorana Cataract. (Another ungodly like weapon in the possession of Garleans. Just great! What could possibly go wrong? xD )

There are still a lot questions. What was Ultima and where did she come from? Another planet or dimension like Cid assumes? Does she have anything to do with the Ascians? Was Ajora a fallen Warrior of Light? Is Fran's boss princess Ashelia? What about the Garlean enter Goug in the last cutszene?

So many questions...LOVE IT!

Someone else pointed out that Fran refers to her superior(the leader of that resistance branch was Ashe in XII) as a young princess, while Ashe would likely be in her 40-50s by now if she survived. While that might be from Fran's perspective, considering viera remain in a state of perpetual youth for 200 years, I still don't think she'd necessarily consider her young at that age. I've seen some people suggest that Penello could be of royal blood in XIValice, who would seem to fit the description we've been given of "Lady Ashe" better than Ashelia.

The Garleans in Goug at the end are a fairly big deal just because of who the IVth's legatus was revealed to be, and I'm definitely interested to see what the followup is considering what Tartarus is supposedly capable of.

[JDNightWalker]

I know that FFT and FFXIV are different stories, but bear with me a sec.

Assume for a moment that Goug, despite its advanced technology, probably has little to do with Allag, except maybe building up technology on what was left behind. Their styles are very different.

The Allagan Empire rises to power and hits its height in the 3rd Astral Era. Causes a calamity that brings about the end of the era.

Goug rises to power far and away from Eorzea. Builds the Clockwork City, establishes itself during the 4th Astral Era. Goug gets wiped out during the calamity that ended the 4th Astral Era, probably as an innocent bystander. Vestiges of Goug exist on into the 5th as slums and ruins, as established in FFT.

Ivalice rises to power during the 5th Astral Era. The War of the Lions and the Glabados Church take root in this era. They're a continent away from what's happening with the War of the Magi back in Eorzea, but as most calamities do, Ivalice becomes an innocent casualty of that era-ending calamity.

Dalmasca rises to power on the ruins of Ivalice during the 6th Astral Era. As the era nears its close, they are occupied by the Garlean Empire. The calamity that ends the 6th, the infamous Bahamut, was a calamity muted by the incredible work of Louisoix and the Warriors of Light. Most of the nations of the 6th survive in one form or another into the 7th Astral, which is where we are now.

I don't have a lot of textual research to back up my thinking, just a lot of fond memories of playing FFT back in the day, what I just learned of Ivalice in the FFXIV timeline and a theory that seems to fit the facts without a lot of evidence against it.

Thoughts?

Thanks for reading!!

[ObsidianFire]

Adding in another spice into the pot, with the same dialogue box that everyone is getting "more than a thousand summers" from:



Note that Jenomis says "one of your calamities". One of your calamities.

This isn't the only place people are getting the "more then a thousand years" from. Lore Book 2 introduces Dalmasca this way.

Built on the sands of the Dalmasca Desert to the south of the Skatay Range, this kingdom prospered for nigh on a thousand years under the peaceful reign of the B'nargin royal line. Thirty years ago, however, Dalmasca fell to the Garlean Empire, and the region became yet another subjugated province.

So Dalmasca itself has been around for a thousand years. Meanwhile the capital of Lesalia is so old that the Dalmascans never found it even though it was right under Rabanaster this entire time. If anything Jenomis' estimation about when Durai was alive should be much older then just "a thousand years".

[Kreyd]

If you compare it to this timeline here I don't think we can put Ivalice within the 5th Era or even sooner, sadly =/

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rzean-Timeline. (It seems a bit outdated, but should work)


We know that Ivalice and the Durai Papers are at least 1000 years old, meaning the Lions War is at least as old as the Dragons War, if not older.
We also know that there was no Golmora-Jungle back then.
Let's assume that Jenomis was right and that one of our calamities really created that jungle.
Let's also assume this calamaty destroyed Ivalice, making place for Dalmasca and that it was the 6th calamity of water.
That would mean, that Ivalice and FFT are at least 1500 years ago and take place in the same Era as Mhach and Amdapor.

Of course in theory any of the calamities could have done that. But the next in order, namely the calamity of ice, took place 3000 years ago.
If Ivalice and the Durai Papers are that old, why doesn't Jenomis say that the Durai Papers are over 2000, or even 3000 years old?

Now, if we assume that this is right, than it means, that the story of Ajora (which takes places 1200 years before FFT) is at least 2700 years old and still within the 6th Era as well.

If Ivalice was destroyed by a calamity, the 6th is the only one that really fits in my opinion.

And even if it wasn't destroyed by one, it still doesn't make much sense to put it in the 5th Era or even sooner, due to the long periods of time that have gone since these eras.

[YianKutku]

Interesting article on the subject:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/01...rrent-stories/

The article writer claims that FFXIV's Ivalice is the same as FFXII's Ivalice, including taking place in the exact same time. This has been disproven many times, including by Matsuno himself.

Why people insist on wilfully spreading misinformation and lies I cannot understand.

The Garleans in Goug at the end are a fairly big deal just because of who the IVth's legatus was revealed to be, and I'm definitely interested to see what the followup is considering what Tartarus is supposedly capable of.

Also, given that Noah van Gabranth was Legatus of the IVth during Dalmasca's fall 30 years ago, and is still Legatus of the IVth today, I wonder how old he is.

This isn't the only place people are getting the "more then a thousand years" from. Lore Book 2 introduces Dalmasca this way.



So Dalmasca itself has been around for a thousand years. Meanwhile the capital of Lesalia is so old that the Dalmascans never found it even though it was right under Rabanaster this entire time. If anything Jenomis' estimation about when Durai was alive should be much older then just "a thousand years".

That's kind of my point about that dialogue box, though. We know from EE2 that Dalmasca was ruled by the B'nargin family for around a thousand years. However, that doesn't say anything about when Ivalice was around.

According to Jenomis, Delita Heiral ended the War of the Lions by winning said war, and then marrying Princess Ovelia Atkascha, which "gave legitimacy" to his claim to the throne. Which implies that the Atkascha dynasty name was still important.

Even if Ovelia took Delita's family name (or the Beoulve name, since Delita was adopted into the Beoulve family according to Jenomis), neither are B'nargin.

So somehow, Ivalice under the Atkascha dynasty had to become Dalmasca under the B'nargin dynasty, and this had to have happened at least a thousand years ago.

What that dialogue box confirms is that according to Jenomis, Ivalice was still around "more than a thousand years ago", when Orran Durai wrote his report. So now we're trying to figure out what "more than" means here, and how large the gap is between Ivalice and Dalmasca.

Let's assume that Jenomis was right and that one of our calamities really created that jungle.
Let's also assume this calamaty destroyed Ivalice, making place for Dalmasca and that it was the 6th calamity of water.
That would mean, that Ivalice and FFT are at least 1500 years ago and take place in the same Era as Mhach and Amdapor.

Actually, what I was pointing out was that Jenomis said "one of your calamities", not "one of the calamities". As in, the calamities that are "ours", as seen from the viewpoint of someone from Eorzea.

I don't know whether Jenomis is (unconsciously) blaming the calamities on Eorzeans in general (with good cause, I think), or he somehow thinks a calamity that is "of" Eorzea can also hypothetically cause the Golmore Jungle to grow. (I know he's not claiming that the calamities are definitely the cause, but he does bring it up as a possibility.)

It's just that if Jenomis called the Umbral Calamities "your calamities", what does he call the effects those calamities have had on Othard and Ilsabard?

[Sounsyy]

Something that one of my tumblr followers recently pointed out to me that I had missed:

Lina Mewrilah: "Whatever led you to believe your father was in Dalmasca's capital?"

Ramza Lexentale: "My father's fascination with Ivalician legend began with a trip to the antediluvian city, long before the war. Call it a premonition, but something tells me that is where he has returned. Now you must excuse me. I need some time to think."

Antediluvian means pre-Flood or before the flood, usually used in reference to the Biblical flood. So Ramza is stating here that Rabanastre is older than the 6th Umbral Flood, almost 1600 years ago. So while the B'nargin line may have last 1000 summers, Rabanastre apparently existed for several centuries before that. This means that Ivalice is likely a 5th Astral Era civilization.

[Kreyd]

Actually, what I was pointing out was that Jenomis said "one of your calamities", not "one of the calamities". As in, the calamities that are "ours", as seen from the viewpoint of someone from Eorzea.

I don't know whether Jenomis is (unconsciously) blaming the calamities on Eorzeans in general (with good cause, I think), or he somehow thinks a calamity that is "of" Eorzea can also hypothetically cause the Golmore Jungle to grow. (I know he's not claiming that the calamities are definitely the cause, but he does bring it up as a possibility.)

It's just that if Jenomis called the Umbral Calamities "your calamities", what does he call the effects those calamities have had on Othard and Ilsabard?

You mean since Jenomis is from Ilsabard, he doesn't really differ between the 6 calamities that ended Eorzean eras and calamities on Eorzea or Othard in general?
Yeah could be right actually. Also is was just his assumption. He could be wrong and the jungle just growth without a connection to any calamity.

The main struggle in my opinion is that Dalmasca is stated to be at least 1000 years old (and of course there has to be some time between Dalmasca and Ivalice), but all we get to know about the age of Ivalice and the Durai Papers is this "At least 1000 years ago" aswell, when is has in fact to be much older than that.

It could be a mistranslation or a plot hole or Jenomis just doesn't exactly know how old the Durai Papers are.

I don't state it's impossible to locate Ivalice within the 5th era. It is absolutely possible and I would actually love it to be stated there. There is just this one missing trace to be 100% sure about it.