My Idea For Fixing Blue Mage

[Shougun]

We don't have to wait for the release, we already know that BLU is not what we wanted.

People wanted BLU as a new job, and they added BLU because of these people who were asking for it. But they don't add it as a job, they add it as a minigame. They targeted the wrong audience, regardless of how fun BLU might me.


And honestly: We knew before 4.0 release that the class changes for WHM and DRK would suck, we knew that the adding of Shirogane will be a mess, we knew that the greed-only loot rule in 24 man raids would not work, we knew months ahead that Eureka will just be another Diadem... We don't (always) have to wait for the release...

I think that part annoys me most, since if they wanted to add this sort of solo content they could have done so with something entirely new. I'm happy some people want that new way to play the game solo content (maybe, it's not clear blue mage is "that" solo friendly). I was sort of excited when I thought it was going to be true to form 1:1 OP spells with extremely strong solo ability but seeing the leaks I'm not sure (they don't look that OP and the fact you need groups for a lot of stuff probably means they're not that strong, will still wait before scoffing though it's literally on our doorstep to wait for lol).

Either way though those who are satisfied for this "new way to approach the game" probably would have been fine with any other job - meanwhile those who wanted Blue Mage to be a job to play as one are now praying they'll make it both limited and not or just abandon all hope (able to be weird and also become balanced).

We also all knew that blue mage was never going to work as a proper job in this game, no other job gets any sort of customization because that's just how the balance is built in this game. The real problem of blue being op was never going to be a single spell like death, it's finding the combination of skills to maximize personal damage and group utility. Imagine black mage damage with bard utility and a tank stance that lets you eat just enough damage to possibly skip a mechanic. This is the reason you can't customize, especially from such a large pool of skills. My example may be a bit exaggerated, yoshi's death example was too, but the point stands. The balance of this game won't allow blue mage that sort of customization.

I don't believe the core of Blue Mage is customization though, besides FFXI that's not been blue mage's "thing". In a FF with jobs that also had blue mage the spell lists have been quite long, and the learning generally open. Learning from monsters and using monster spells is Blue Mage's thing. Cannot agree to a concept that Blue Mage couldn't be implemented just because of customization as that's not Blue Mage (imo).

Although - I think they have the opportunity to give Blue Mage a silly long spell list (limited) AND allow them into duty finder by allowing Blue Mage to be both (limited and not), which could be really interesting I suppose. Really hoping they take a subset of the skills you can learn and turn it into a valid job (balanced for duty finder).. I think that'd actually go beyond my original hopes for Blue Mage in this game (if they were able to have a customized non-df content (circus, pf, etc) and also a limited df part).

First, to have a fix, there has to be a problem, and you'd have a hard time finding a real consensus wether there's a problem or not, and if so, what is the problem..

While I agree the how to fix might be disorganized I'd argue strongly that the problem is exceptionally consistent with people (they want it to work in DF). So I think the consensus on problem is actually extremely clear, for those who have a problem at least. Not everyone has a problem of course; however, everyone doesn't need to agree one exists for one to be so - otherwise very very few problems in the world exist lol (since unanimity or even majority agreement is rare).

Another thing to add to that is most of the people I've read (having read almost all the threads about blue mage here) who want DF are not asking for the solo/SE aspect to be destroyed so in many situations the two groups (those who like SE's version/those who don't) are only at odds with each other in very limited fashions.

Let the job go live first please. There are more important things to worry about at this point. Like drama in the field from people over camping mobs and B-ranks for spells and someone drive-by kill stealing your mob while you wait for it to use the ability you want to learn. Unlike FFXI, all enemies are fair game and any anti-BLU troll or general a-hole can run up and kill your claimed mob. That's the only thing I'm worried about.

That sounds very aggravating lol.. Hopefully that doesn't become a wide spread issue.

[Rymm]

I laughed harder than I probably should have at this.

[Bright-Flower]

I don't think there's a way to 'fix' it in the sense the TC wants (making it viable in normal/current content) without defeating the purpose of a limited job in the first place. This is one case where I think going for either end of the spectrum works but a compromise would be a broken mess.

BLU could have worked as a normal job. They could have picked a role, and taken classic blue mage spells to form a rotation/toolkit for that role, and just tied the monster part of it into job quests. It would have worked fine. But I don't think that can work while also letting BLU mages freely collect spells in the traditional way. Because they're not going to make a normal job that requires so many extra hoops get its full tool kit. It would also be a balancing nightmare letting them select a set of spells from said pool freely, while every other job gets a set in stone tool kit. (Even role abilities have had any choice removed outside of low levels.) You would have issues of people having to put in extra work to get the needed spells or else be barred from duty finder. Or you would have people joining duty finder unprepared and holding groups back and possibly getting kicked for it. They would ultimately have to balance blue mage around having all of its abilities, otherwise people that get all of the spells would be OP.

I just don't think it would work. The only way blue mage would work as a standard job in the game would be to strip out the spell collection aspect, give it a set rotation learned via job quests and leveling, and fit it into a mold just like every other job was fit into a mold. There is no 'fixing' blue mage. The only way to make it work as a balanced job would mean completely doing away with everything the limited job system allows it to do.

Now, if some people would prefer it had just been implemented as a normal job and scrapped the spell collection and customization aspects, I can respect that point of view. But BLU isn't going to be able to have its cake and eat it too here without becoming a broken mess balance wise one way or another.

[Andevom]

Once you have all your skills what are you going to do with them.

For any other job: Once you have all your gear, what are you going to do with it?

[Shougun]

I don't think there's a way to 'fix' it in the sense the TC wants (making it viable in normal/current content) without defeating the purpose of a limited job in the first place. This is one case where I think going for either end of the spectrum works but a compromise would be a broken mess.

Why?

Take a subset of the spells in the book and highlight them gold, these golden skills have "chained" versions of their skills. When you go into DF flip your job stone to chained mode (changing your gear and hotbar in one easy motion), chained blue can only use chained spells (which there are a specific set of).

Unchained blue = exactly how limited blue mage is now (cannot DF/etc). Chained blue = has to learn their skills, cannot join the DF content that could use them without having them first (and due to unchained mode can learn them without need of DF), is balanced like other jobs.

I don't see why they can't exist at the same time (besides money, although of course chain will take assets (animations, concepts, etc) from the unchained mode meaning it's less expensive than generating an entirely new job).

Just to be clear I don't agree with making 3 jobs part of the OP, I believe 1 is enough and 3 is too much work, just so some of my argument isn't mixed in too deep with that idea.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Bullocks. The most popular Blue Mage thread on these forums is a petition for duty finder. Everything I listed out was part of a plan that could fix Blue Mage.

Even so, these fixes wouldn't affect any of you naysayers, because the solo play you love so much would be unaffected. We can have Blue in solo content, and the current party finder.

Not fix anything my scaley au ra butt. All Im proposing is that they evolve Blue Mage into a full scale job. Anyone that wouldn't want evolution of our game isn't to be taken seriously. Once you have all your skills what are you going to do with them. Main Story Quests? It's not allowed. Raid? Nope, you can't do that. Dungeons outside of party finder that you have done before, and probably don't need? Yep. Have fun with Sastasha or whatever. Deep dungeon not even for the solo experience? Nope. Current content? Nope. All you've got is the Masked Carnival. It is a joke. I guarantee after a month people are going to shelve it.

Bullocks. The fixes would affect everyone because you're asking the devs to develop 3 full jobs in one package, instead of the limited job they're currently doing.

You're not asking for the evolution of the game. You're asking the devs to drop what they're doing and fully cater you and a few others, because there's something you don't particularly like.

And don't be fooled. BLU as a tank or BLU as a healer would have to be pretty balanced, otherwise you'd have no BLUs wanted because tanks/healers do a better job or every other tank/healer shelved because BLU is better at their role than them.

[Bright-Flower]

Why?

Take a subset of the spells in the book and highlight them gold, these golden skills have "chained" versions of their skills. When you go into DF flip your job stone to chained mode (changing your gear and hotbar in one easy motion), chained blue can only use chained spells (which there are a specific set of).

Unchained blue = exactly how limited blue mage is now (cannot DF/etc). Chained blue = has to learn their skills, cannot join the DF content that could use them without having them first (and due to unchained mode can learn them without need of DF), is balanced like other jobs.

I don't see why they can't exist at the same time (besides money, although of course chain will take assets (animations, concepts, etc) from the unchained mode meaning it's less expensive than generating an entirely new job).

Just to be clear I don't agree with making 3 jobs part of the OP, I believe 1 is enough and 3 is too much work, just so some of my argument isn't mixed in too deep with that idea.

Then they have to build an actual rotation and balance it where the whole point of a limited job is to let you collect spells and do what you want with them away from the balanced endgame. Plus the issue of people having to go out and gather all of these chained abilities in order to be viable, a hurdle not thrust upon any other job. And if they separate the chained spells from the normal 'go out and collect them' spells at that point they might as well just make a new job separate from blu for all the work they gotta put into it.

[Crushnight]

This right here is honestly my biggest (and currently, only) concern on BLU being released. In fact, I fully expect some players in game to be doing this, just to spite those who are fine with the way BLU is being implemented... or are even just simply curious about how BLU works as this new "Limited Job" concept. While I myself was rather disappointed that BLU is being made into a limited job instead of a full job, my concern began to shift over to what you just said, given the nature of a few players I've seen in FFXIV. I'll be amazed if I get through the BLU leveling process and skills (off the overworld monsters first) without at least one troll attempt being made against my BLU.

I don't think it'll be that big of a problem though. Maybe. We'll see tomorrow.

ok there are very few abilities that are overworld mobs only, Faze (go to any qiqirn), Flying sardine(plenty of Apkallus or do the levequest Call me mating), Bristle(loads of boars around) and Toad oil(the only one that might be able to troll on as haven't found a duty with it)
so 4 abilities that can only be gotten in overworld and only 1 that might be able to be trolled with/farmed to death
All in all do not worry as the vast majority of abilities have an alternate way of getting them the overworld might be the best for 16 abilities but only 4 actually require it

[Shougun]

Then they have to build an actual rotation and balance it where the whole point of a limited job is to let you collect spells and do what you want with them away from the balanced endgame. Plus the issue of people having to go out and gather all of these chained abilities in order to be viable, a hurdle not thrust upon any other job. And if they separate the chained spells from the normal 'go out and collect them' spells at that point they might as well just make a new job separate from blu for all the work they gotta put into it.

People wanted to play Blue Mage as a main job, so no setting another new job is not the point lol (also it would still be less work than making a whole new job, since as I said they'd have a head start on lore and graphics). And yes of course they have to build a rotation, the whole point of limited job is not ruined by allowing a chained section though. You still have exactly the limited part of the job available to you (literally, limited is untouched).

You haven't given me a reason why it can't have both just that chained and unchained are different.. which of course they are - that is the point there.

Chained would not ruin unchained. You can still go learn unbalanced spells part of limited, you just can't use those unbalanced spells when "chained". If you chose not to main blue mage then you'll never experience being chained. And if you do then you can play blue mage as some weird solo lord when unchained (and content allows) and you can also play it as your main playing current now content. "but other jobs don't have to learn their skills, that's extra burden on blue mage players", I accept the burden thanks besides the reward is goofy spells when unchained (call it advanced job and let players know upfront it's different).

[Kazrah]

You haven't given me a reason why it can't have both just that chained and unchained are different.. which of course they are - that is the point there.

Because chained means they'd have to go learn those abilities and would likely be exiled by other players from group content until the player spent the work to go learn those spells. Not only is it roughly the response Yoshi had in regard to why Blue Mage is barred from Duty Finder content, but planning for the worst behavior of users is just a basic element of smart programming.

Ultimately, you can either have a job work like any other or you can have a job work like Blue Mage will. You can't have both because of just how horrible players can potentially be with any new system.