Thread: Various PvP Changes in Patch 4.5

I really hope 5.0 gets a complete PvP redo, something closer to PVE (and 3.0) because when I see that you still cant' figure out how to balance jobs (and yet the simplification of PVP was supposed to make it easier to do adjustments on a more regular basis than in 3.0) I'm really left wondering why you even bothered changing PVP in the first place. You've been presented with evidence from various players of different jobs glaring strengths and weaknesses, multiple times, but most of the fixes feel disconnected from the feedback, to the point these forums are slowly dieing because no one is taking PVP seriously anymore. It's still nearly impossible to top the rankings as ranged dps, it's still mostly dominated by healers, which are unbalanced compared to one another, some dps are in need of crowd control abilities, or change to their mechanics (MNK) to be brought to the level of DRG and SAM...

In retrospect, although it was (is?) mostly an issue on NA servers, Frontlines have also lost any sense of the fun they had in 3.0, thanks to both the atrocious new gameplay, and the introduction of XP rewards which turned it into bot infested matches. RW is nowhere as fun or enduring as the previous PVP modes, including Shatter, which was already a step in the wrong direction with PVE elements being the most important factor to victory.

Originally Posted by Akimitsu

I really hope 5.0 gets a complete PvP redo, something closer to PVE (and 3.0) because when I see that you still cant' figure out how to balance jobs (and yet the simplification of PVP was supposed to make it easier to do adjustments on a more regular basis than in 3.0) I'm really left wondering why you even bothered changing PVP in the first place. You've been presented with evidence from various players of different jobs glaring strengths and weaknesses, multiple times, but most of the fixes feel disconnected from the feedback, to the point these forums are slowly dieing because no one is taking PVP seriously anymore. It's still nearly impossible to top the rankings as ranged dps, it's still mostly dominated by healers, which are unbalanced compared to one another, some dps are in need of crowd control abilities, or change to their mechanics (MNK) to be brought to the level of DRG and SAM...


In retrospect, although it was (is?) mostly an issue on NA servers, Frontlines have also lost any sense of the fun they had in 3.0, thanks to both the atrocious new gameplay, and the introduction of XP rewards which turned it into bot infested matches. RW is nowhere as fun or enduring as the previous PVP modes, including Shatter, which was already a step in the wrong direction with PVE elements being the most important factor to victory.

QFT /tencharz

Originally Posted by Akimitsu

I really hope 5.0 gets a complete PvP redo, something closer to PVE (and 3.0).

I'd rather they just add more skills per class over time and steadily build up a job design system intended for PvP, using 4.0 as a foundation.

If the issue is about the number of actions available, I support more for 5.0. However, I don't understand why we have to go back to having the PvE job design cut and pasted into PvP to get more abilities. This isn't a game like WoW or ESO that launched with PvP. Unlike those games, the job design was not built from the ground up to support both PvP and PvE simultaneously. 2.0-3.0 PvP jobs have always been rigid, PvE-centric designs copy-pasted into a PvP setting.

For example, does AST need aoe Balance in PvP and instant shields and light speed and aoe shields and the same healing potencies as a WHM like we saw during 3.0's healer balance? Meanwhile, 3.0 WHM had no party buffs, slow heals and no shield because Divine Benison didn't exist and protect didn't work the way it does in PvP now. Sleep gimmicks was your only tool, but BLM did that better and CC got nerfed to boot.

From 3.0, the entire healer kits would have to be modified to balance things, whereas the difference in strength between 4.0 AST and WHM is a simple limit break mitigation option. That's literally it. Outside of the coordinated LB threat, i'm not even sure that WHM beats AST. The reason the players can so easily articulate the issues in job balance on the forums is that it's usually not a laundry list of issues, it's typically one or two issues that aren't hard to identify.

The tanks are all relatively well balanced now, ranged are well balanced with the exception of, maybe, Summoner? After the recent Ninja buffs, I'd say only MNK needs significant attention for melee. Despite that, a Monk main was still #1 on one of the data centers last season. For healers, SCH and to a much lesser degree, AST needs work. To my knowledge, that's about it. There is no huge balance crisis. I dare say, despite it's issues, PvP is about as balanced as it's ever been?

Originally Posted by Akimitsu

I really hope 5.0 gets a complete PvP
.

The main reason why healer always on top of the ranking has nothing to do with job balance. It is more issue of overall Feast population size is too small and pupultion of the healer simply allowing them to have more game time. For example, Dps que time is 20 mins but healer is either instant or under 5 mins.

Originally Posted by Divinemights

The main reason why healer always on top of the ranking has nothing to do with job balance.

You're right, but it's not even job balance. Roles aren't jobs. It's role carry potential combined with shorter queue times for different roles. Healers and Melee DPS have higher carry potential combined with shorter queue times. (Because they're more stressful to play, less people try to queue up as them). Tanks and Ranged DPS have slightly lower carry potential and longer queue times, for Ranged DPS, much longer queue times. (Many prefer these roles because they're less stressful to play.)

Ranged DPS is more or less, a support DPS who follows the target calls made by the Melee DPS. Melee DPS generally leads in choosing when and who to burst. They generally make the plays that lead to kills, and have to deal with being focused a lot. Healer holds the entire team together by keeping everyone alive. Extremely important. It's very obvious to me why these two roles top the solo queue rankings. They have a higher burden on average and thus, a higher potential to carry.

It happens when team PvP games have asymmetrical roles. I don't ask my support teammate in LoL why he isn't carrying the team to victory. This is really a non-issue that can't be "fixed" without watering down and streamlining the role identity in some way. People can always learn multiple roles or play team ranked instead because I'm not sure how SE could go about making a Bard only player have the same carry potential as the healer.

My hope is that they'd nail the balance as much as possible and then use the balanced 4.0 builds as a base template to graft extra skills onto. They'd have less work because they wouldn't be starting from scratch or building from the new PvE balance that comes when they restructure the jobs every expansion. PvP would be evolving from it's own format rather than just adapting the new 5.0 PvE adjustments into PvP.

Black Mage has 14 abilities in PvP and 26 in PvE, not including the universal PvP or Role actions. My Blizzard IV key automatically changes into Fire IV when I go into Astral fire, but that doesn't mean they aren't separate abilities from a balance perspective.

PvP was certainly niche in 3.0. Outside of the Garo event at the very end of HW, the PvP queue times were actually longer for the majority of the 3.X cycle.