Thread: Revelations from Patch 4.5

MSQ

I think I'm still not quite sure what to make of Varis, his stated aims, and what's going on with Garlemald. he seems more into it ('it' being Solu's plans / Garlean status quo) than I perhaps initially expected.
Also I was quite blindsided by the Emperor's Back-up Clone Plot. How long has it been going on? What is the purpose?
I'm all worried about the reserve Black Rose too.

As for the Scions, could the fact that it's the upper-level members that are being Called be taken as hint to who might be responsible / for what purpose? Or is just because they are main characters... (probably this)

24 man - I haven't actually run this yet, just unlocked it.

Ever since someone mentioned Ultima was pretty central to FFT plot, specifically regarding Alma (I've never played it, myself), I'd been wondering how they might address Ultima (lucavi) / Ultima (spell) / Ultima Weapon / Altima (ascian), and I was almost ready for an "Ascians did it" twist, but "inter dimensional shenanigans" is good to i guess. It's interesting that they've made it so that Zodiac Braves = Warriors of Light (did I get that right? At least it seemed that way for Ajora and Ramza). (Wasn't the whole Zodiac Relic Weapon thing in ARR also to do with Zodiac Braves but they seemed like a completely different group so ???)

Also, when did Orran/Orlan Durai find time to invent Triple Triad? (I'm presuming this connection based on the Durai Memorial Cup tournament being named after FF8's triple triad inventor, who is named after Orran, but that's purely fanon on my part)

Even More Varis

I think what is so jarring about Varis as presented so far and Varis at the parley is something that was touched upon by nanamo. The stances the nation has take , even the ones he has voiced phimself, speak of someone who is looking to stop the Ascian and primal threats. He values the empire from his conversations with Solus, and hasn't acted until now that he is an Ascian, somehow removed from the cycle of death and destruction they have been using. He is a flesh and blood person who lives in this world.



Yet his proposal on its face sounds not just bonkers, but plain unenforcable. None of the nations at the that table would be involved in the process as their people would be transformed. He has no control nor ability to control the new people that could result from the rejoining being completed, if that is what would happen. Even primaling his way out of it would be a non starter, as he would not only contend with a revived fathercrystal in Zodiark and what's left of Hydaelyn, beings that can have their pick of random joes to kill primals , but since the Garlean nation would no longer exist, he would not have his source of faith.

In regards to MSQ dungeon

When I reached Kan E Sena she had an empty blinking health bar. It was nice that she did dps but didn't seem to have aero III. Course when I ran it Pipin when my group came across him didn't seem to want to do anything. Later when everyone else was there he did seem to attack. Side note I need the orchestrion roll for the place.

MSQ

Kan E Sena's guard when you speak to him before the parlay he mentions he was born in Garalamd but left because he didn't agree with how things were ran. So he is either a non pure blood or a hyur of a country they took over.

Yay Sleep!

MSQ

So in Shadowbringers at some point Cid, Nero and Gaius are all going to end up in the same room right? I'll bring the popcorn.

I agree that the parley's dialogue was a bit clumsy. I understand that scene was trying to accomplish several things in a short amount of time and that one of those goals for to give exposition for players don't spend time on the lore forums/reddit etc. However, the leaders of the Eorzean Alliance basically having to ask the Emperor of Garlemald "explain your country's motivation to us" and then having the question answered by Hien instead of working it into the patch's story more organically (maybe in a pre-negotiation briefing or planning session) made the Alliance leaders look ridiculously incompetent. They have to be incompetent in order for the Scions to have a reason to exist, but this is a new level of clueless. It is not as if there aren't plenty of Garleans running around in Eorzea that they could interview and use to compose a basic dossier or anything. The negotiations were a stall tactic yes, but they didn't seem to have any unified strategy to accomplish that goal going in.

Also the leaders (except maybe Nanamo) seemed a bit personality-less in the CSes, like they had all left their distinct personalities at the door and were serving as one character "Eorzean Alliance leader" with many heads. It was still better than the "negotiation" scene in FFXV with Noctis and Altissian leader. Writing political discussions seems to be a weak point for SE. But then again most other people in the thread seem to like that scene so /shrug.

That said I'm glad Varis wasn't all "you hate Ascians, I hate Ascians, let's be secret buddies, I'm just pretending to be a jerk". Overused adages aside, sometimes your enemy's enemy is still your enemy. That the writers don't seem to be taking the easy way out of the Garlemald problem makes me more excited for Shadowbringers.

I'm glad that they'd already established that all the Scions are going to just end up in comas because Alisaie was really trying her best to wave every death flag she could.

Ivalice

I never played Tactics, so I feel like I've missed out on some of the fun in this series, for all that I have still enjoyed it. FFXII is my favorite FF so it was a lot of fun to see Fran and Gabranth and hear about Ashe. At some point in the follow up we are going to get to run around screaming "Basch Lives!", right?

The follow up quest with the Wandering Dramaturge was pretty funny, and I loved my character's expressions in the scene with Hancock. I'm glad we could do something nice for Drest even if I just want to stick him in my bag take him back to his home. Hey, I can transport Namazu, it would work!

Tataru's line about "no one else could be bothered" was odd though since if you talk to her after 4.4 she mentions that she knows about Scions falling ill.

The Four Lords

. . . was really cute! I, like Tataru, was expecting some sort of gag at the end, but I'm glad she got her treasure. I'm expecting that she will be returning to the MSQ for the finale now that the Four Lords story is done. I will miss her kimono outfit; Tataru is always making clothing for everyone else but always goes back to her old 1.0 outfit in the end.

Alright! I've only had time to do the MSQ at the moment, partially since I've been away from the game for a while and am dreadfully undergeared. I'll only discuss the MSQ in this post, since, well, I'll have to do some Omega Grinding and I expect this post to be well and buried by the time I'm done with that!

Anyway, without further ado...

Pre-Parley

I'll handle the plot in mostly chronological order for the moment. It'll help me keep my thoughts a bit more organized. Sorry if I've mixed up the order at all, I remember all the events but sometimes I just get weird in that way.

I honestly guessed that Matoya would be on call to help with the whole 'Scions sans souls' issue. She's kind of the perfect woman for the job. Thankfully she's also just as entertaining as I remember, if not moreso! I've always been a big fan of Matoya in this game, and frankly cranky old witch women too ha ha. The way that she hid her legitimate fear and concern through snark shone through in the voice acting, and was really endearing to her character. Referring to Y'shtola as a 'wildcat' who needed to be tamed gives me so many adorable mental images of the pair when they were younger. Their exposition more firmly puts me in the 'their souls have been brought to another shard' camp. Their souls are clearly somewhere, but they can't be seen from this plane. Seems like we might be heading out next expansion...but I could be totally wrong.

Maxima counts as a full defector now! Given that he was just almost assassinated it kind of makes sense that he'd flee Garlemald, especially given how the Encyclopedia Eorzea II revealed that his parents were likely assassinated for the same reason. It's a little disappointing to hear that most of the Populares fled instead of sticking behind as a pseudo-resistance faction, but they can honestly show up at any time, and are likely to accompany us to Garlemald (which seems like will be in 6.0 right now). Afterwards it's back to Doma, and I love the idea mentioned earlier in this thread that poor Elezenos has just been racing back and forth hoping to catch up to us.

As for the scene in Doma, it basically screamed out to the heavens that DOMA IS SAFE GUYS! IT'S COOL IF HIEN AND THE SAMURAI AND THE PIRATES AND XAELA AND JUNK LEAVE! THEY ARE SAFE! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM DURING 5.0!!! Which honestly makes sense. I'm pretty tired of Doma at this point (even if Hien is still a very, very good boy). We have other things to worry about. It was cool to see representatives from Dalmasca and Nagxia present though.

Then we moved onto our meeting with the Shadowhunter. It was perhaps a little oddly anti-climactic. It kind of makes sense since we didn't have Cid or any of the other characters that would have a dramatic reaction to him (our character could but there are severe writing limitations around that) but it's a tad disappointing. Even Raughban did not seem overly concerned about it. Gaius is still cool as ever though honestly. The Shadowhunter seems like a necessary character, why not make it someone more interesting? Also Ehm-Selet is almost certainly Solus, but they could be leaving that as a twist and it's really someone else. It's also interesting to see Elidibus's role and apparent leadership status explained. As for not really explaining how Gaius survived, it would have been a bit corny to get into the specifics anyway. It's not like they planned the whole time for him to survive or anything, so its' easier to sort of brush over it. The idea that he's trying to live up to the memories of his lost men is fun though.

Afterwards we had a rather excellent scene of lovely Grandfather Grandson Bonding. Solus still lights up any scene he shows up in, and his flippant demeanor more or less gels with the idea that he was 'always an Ascian'. The way he mocks Varis was fun to see, and I loved the whole bits about him 'thinking Varis was a real emperor' and 'forming a family enterprise'. Varis having the cloning projects is kind of interesting. He clearly started them before he knew the truth about Solus and the Ascians, hence Solus mocking him for just being able to take them now, but what was his original plan? Given his 'master race' and ubersmench-y views, I wouldn't be shocked if he was trying to create the 'ideal Garlean race' or something like that. Either way, it proves he might have had a more esoteric ideology and goals even before his whole life was revealed to be a lie. Also it looks like the Black Rose will be more than a simple weapon...sure why not.

The rest of the plot was more or less the kind of procedural scenes that were needed so we can understand what's happening, and next we moved onto more interesting fare.

Parley and Ghymlet Dark

The Parley was very clearly the 'signature scene' of the patch. I overall really quite enjoyed it too. There was a palpable sense of tension in the room as they argued. Varis did manage to dismantle their arguments (even if I wish they got to fight back a little more) but it was cool how they used it to demonstrate his/Garlean ideology. His weakest counterargument was probably to Kan-E-Senna, who only agreed to summon the twelve in response to the Garleans, but the others were fun enough, whether or not you agree. The response I found most interesting was to (our very best boy) Aymeric, where Varis basically agreed with Thordan even if it was accompanied by a sick burn. There are really a lot of similarities between them, especially now. Alisae taking control of the situation and seeming to take on an Alphinaud impression was a fun clincher to the scene. It also established Varis as a lot more canny and clever than the more brutish, straightforward impression we had of him before. Which was fun.

I liked how you get to bring up in the interlude that, well, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, and Varis was unlikely to be convinced anyway. They point out Garlean hypocrisies, but that's also unimportant right now. They needed to focus on the future, and it seemed even like they understood that to get through they had to feed his ego a bit. Nanamo taking back control of the situation was a fun way to start off part 2, as our heroes get to strike back after being diplomatically outmatched. I have mixed feelings on Varis's actual plan. The one perfect race thing speaks pretty well to the sort of fascistic racial prejudices clearly present in Garlemald. As does the idea that he basically thinks everyone else is too stupid to realize the truth and should just shut up and listen to their betters already. That's kind of how the Empire generally acts towards the people it conquers. The way he glared angrily and shouted at them when they didn't agree with his master plan was also fun.

On the other hand, it's a little strange that he's willing to go through with Calamities. He definitely could have been possessed or forced to say those things, possibly even trying to grant us information like how Theodoric said. Although if that's the case, there wasn't a ton to hint at it. This wouldn't be the first time someone tried to manipulate the Ascians and use their tools for themselves, or even succeeded in taking power for themselves that way. Thordan was literally brought up in the conversation after all. So it could really go either way at this point. It's a little strange to see Varis being more ephemeral, but with the cloning thing and his prior attempts to harness Allagan technology maybe there was just more to him than met the eye.

Afterward was the Ghymlet dark, which was honestly a fun, exciting dungeon! It was probably my favorite of the 'war dungeons' so far. The aesthetics of crashed magitek implements and Eorzean artillery created a great image, while the large groups of randomly fighting soldiers hemmed around our heroes brought the mood home. Having NPC allies was also great, especially when Kan-E-Senna and Lyse got to do fancy LBs, or simply did mechanics. Where was Merlwyb though!? Are they just ashamed of the Machinist animations or something? Either way it was a fun, cinematic dungeon. That same cinematic element might make it not great for grinding, but it'll be fine on a Duty Roulette ha ha.

Anyway, I overall enjoyed the plot. It felt like it ended a bit early, they must be saving the big twists and reveal moments for Patch 4.5 Part 2.

Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Alright! I've only had time to do the MSQ at the moment, partially since I've been away from the game for a while and am dreadfully undergeared. I'll only discuss the MSQ in this post, since, well, I'll have to do some Omega Grinding and I expect this post to be well and buried by the time I'm done with that!

Anyway, without further ado...

Pre-Parley

I'll handle the plot in mostly chronological order for the moment. It'll help me keep my thoughts a bit more organized. Sorry if I've mixed up the order at all, I remember all the events but sometimes I just get weird in that way.

I honestly guessed that Matoya would be on call to help with the whole 'Scions sans souls' issue. She's kind of the perfect woman for the job. Thankfully she's also just as entertaining as I remember, if not moreso! I've always been a big fan of Matoya in this game, and frankly cranky old witch women too ha ha. The way that she hid her legitimate fear and concern through snark shone through in the voice acting, and was really endearing to her character. Referring to Y'shtola as a 'wildcat' who needed to be tamed gives me so many adorable mental images of the pair when they were younger. Their exposition more firmly puts me in the 'their souls have been brought to another shard' camp. Their souls are clearly somewhere, but they can't be seen from this plane. Seems like we might be heading out next expansion...but I could be totally wrong.

Maxima counts as a full defector now! Given that he was just almost assassinated it kind of makes sense that he'd flee Garlemald, especially given how the Encyclopedia Eorzea II revealed that his parents were likely assassinated for the same reason. It's a little disappointing to hear that most of the Populares fled instead of sticking behind as a pseudo-resistance faction, but they can honestly show up at any time, and are likely to accompany us to Garlemald (which seems like will be in 6.0 right now). Afterwards it's back to Doma, and I love the idea mentioned earlier in this thread that poor Elezenos has just been racing back and forth hoping to catch up to us.

As for the scene in Doma, it basically screamed out to the heavens that DOMA IS SAFE GUYS! IT'S COOL IF HIEN AND THE SAMURAI AND THE PIRATES AND XAELA AND JUNK LEAVE! THEY ARE SAFE! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THEM DURING 5.0!!! Which honestly makes sense. I'm pretty tired of Doma at this point (even if Hien is still a very, very good boy). We have other things to worry about. It was cool to see representatives from Dalmasca and Nagxia present though.

Then we moved onto our meeting with the Shadowhunter. It was perhaps a little oddly anti-climactic. It kind of makes sense since we didn't have Cid or any of the other characters that would have a dramatic reaction to him (our character could but there are severe writing limitations around that) but it's a tad disappointing. Even Raughban did not seem overly concerned about it. Gaius is still cool as ever though honestly. The Shadowhunter seems like a necessary character, why not make it someone more interesting? Also Ehm-Selet is almost certainly Solus, but they could be leaving that as a twist and it's really someone else. It's also interesting to see Elidibus's role and apparent leadership status explained. As for not really explaining how Varis survived, it would have been a bit corny to get into the specifics anyway. It's not like they planned the whole time for him to survive or anything, so its' easier to sort of brush over it. The idea that he's trying to live up to the memories of his lost men is fun though.

Afterwards we had a rather excellent scene of lovely Grandfather Grandson Bonding. Solus still lights up any scene he shows up in, and his flippant demeanor more or less gels with the idea that he was 'always an Ascian'. The way he mocks Varis was fun to see, and I loved the whole bits about him 'thinking Varis was a real emperor' and 'forming a family enterprise'. Varis having the cloning projects is kind of interesting. He clearly started them before he knew the truth about Solus and the Ascians, hence Solus mocking him for just being able to take them now, but what was his original plan? Given his 'master race' and ubersmench-y views, I wouldn't be shocked if he was trying to create the 'ideal Garlean race' or something like that. Either way, it proves he might have had a more esoteric ideology and goals even before his whole life was revealed to be a lie. Also it looks like the Black Rose will be more than a simple weapon...sure why not.

The rest of the plot was more or less the kind of procedural scenes that were needed so we can understand what's happening, and next we moved onto more interesting fare.

Parley and Ghymlet Dark

The Parley was very clearly the 'signature scene' of the patch. I overall really quite enjoyed it too. There was a palpable sense of tension in the room as they argued. Varis did manage to dismantle their arguments (even if I wish they got to fight back a little more) but it was cool how they used it to demonstrate his/Garlean ideology. His weakest counterargument was probably to Kan-E-Senna, who only agreed to summon the twelve in response to the Garleans, but the others were fun enough, whether or not you agree. The response I found most interesting was to (our very best boy) Aymeric, where Varis basically agreed with Thordan even if it was accompanied by a sick burn. There are really a lot of similarities between them, especially now. Alisae taking control of the situation and seeming to take on an Alphinaud impression was a fun clincher to the scene. It also established Varis as a lot more canny and clever than the more brutish, straightforward impression we had of him before. Which was fun.

I liked how you get to bring up in the interlude that, well, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, and Varis was unlikely to be convinced anyway. They point out Garlean hypocrisies, but that's also unimportant right now. They needed to focus on the future, and it seemed even like they understood that to get through they had to feed his ego a bit. Nanamo taking back control of the situation was a fun way to start off part 2, as our heroes get to strike back after being diplomatically outmatched. I have mixed feelings on Varis's actual plan. The one perfect race thing speaks pretty well to the sort of fascistic racial prejudices clearly present in Garlemald. As does the idea that he basically thinks everyone else is too stupid to realize the truth and should just shut up and listen to their betters already. That's kind of how the Empire generally acts towards the people it conquers. The way he glared angrily and shouted at them when they didn't agree with his master plan was also fun.

On the other hand, it's a little strange that he's willing to go through with Calamities. He definitely could have been possessed or forced to say those things, possibly even trying to grant us information like how Theodoric said. Although if that's the case, there wasn't a ton to hint at it. This wouldn't be the first time someone tried to manipulate the Ascians and use their tools for themselves, or even succeeded in taking power for themselves that way. Thordan was literally brought up in the conversation after all. So it could really go either way at this point. It's a little strange to see Varis being more ephemeral, but with the cloning thing and his prior attempts to harness Allagan technology maybe there was just more to him than met the eye.

Afterward was the Ghymlet dark, which was honestly a fun, exciting dungeon! It was probably my favorite of the 'war dungeons' so far. The aesthetics of crashed magitek implements and Eorzean artillery created a great image, while the large groups of randomly fighting soldiers hemmed around our heroes brought the mood home. Having NPC allies was also great, especially when Kan-E-Senna and Lyse got to do fancy LBs, or simply did mechanics. Where was Merlwyb though!? Are they just ashamed of the Machinist animations or something? Either way it was a fun, cinematic dungeon. That same cinematic element might make it not great for grinding, but it'll be fine on a Duty Roulette ha ha.

Anyway, I overall enjoyed the plot. It felt like it ended a bit early, they must be saving the big twists and reveal moments for Patch 4.5 Part 2.

Even more Varis!!!

This isn't taking advantage of the ascians, though. he has no plan!


No way to unify the newformed post joined masses into the force he wants once the rejoining is completed.
No way to ensure any of the proposed parties survive the calamities involved, including himself.
The plan is going with the goals of the ascians but doesn't explain how any of it will better the situation.
Ascians that the proposed know and are opposed to.


He has no plan, and yet wanted to convince them with it? Why?

MSQ

Do you think there's any chance Matoya could be targeted by the Voice? (Though if so, and if it was trying to cut us off from people who can help, you'd think she'd already be gone by now.)


Also a minor thing, but when I went to teleport from the Ghimlyt encampment, I noticed that the teleport prices are based on distances from the Ala Mhigan Quarter aetheryte. Usually if you're anywhere in the Lochs (even in the Ala Mhigan Quarter), the prices are based on distances from Porta Praetoria.

For similar instances, the Doman Enclave prices are based on Namai, and residential districts from their corresponding capital city.

Ivalice / Orbonne Monastery

Something curious I noticed in the post-dungeon cutscene: I'm pretty sure the guy in the brown cloak is reusing the NPC for 'Marques' (ie. amnesiac Cid)... my first thought was just "hah, caught you recycling old models" but then I thought about it more, and particularly given the carbon-copy ancestors of Ramza and Alma, I have to wonder if it's deliberate.

Originally Posted by YianKutku

MSQ:

I admit I laughed when Gaius's airship hit the barrier. Kind of like seeing him walk into a glass door.

Getting Alphinaud back like this is kind of anti-climactic, especially since it was overshadowed tremendously by Gaius introducing himself.

"What's with the barrier? I'm trying to make a dramatic entrance here!"

Though I didn't feel like it was an anticlimactic time to find out Alphinaud had also been taken - if anything it stole the spotlight off Gaius when I realised what had happened!

Originally Posted by YianKutku

MSQ additional thoughts:

The more I think about the parley, the more annoyed I am with it. [...] Especially disappointed in Aymeric. Where was the Aymeric who managed to get Hraesvelgr to at least listen to him, even if it was Midgardsormr who actually convinced Hraesvelgr?

The game does at least address this if you talk to Aymeric during the recess.

AYMERIC
Whatever rebuttal I had in mind was lost when Varis mentioned my father. The man is certainly skilled at keeping his opponents off balance.

Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

MSQ spoilers

So I did some poking around after the MSQ ended, and it appears Artoriel Fortemps is with the Alliance in Ghimlyt, and the Fortemps family have new dialogue. Interesting and slightly worrying...

Thanks for the alert - I did wonder if they'd be there!

By "the Fortemps family" do you just mean Emmanellain and Honoroit? Because I don't think anyone else is around, and their dialogue isn't really worrying, beyond confirming that yet another ally is currently within the Garleans' firing range. Artoirel is absent but he would still be with the army at Ghimlyt.

Originally Posted by SannaR

MSQ

Kan E Sena's guard when you speak to him before the parlay he mentions he was born in Garalamd but left because he didn't agree with how things were ran. So he is either a non pure blood or a hyur of a country they took over.

That's not exactly what he said (or what happened) though.

KEEPER OF THE ENTWINED SERPENTS
I was born in the Empire, but I will never serve the Emperor. Only the Seedseer commands my loyalty.

He was rescued from the battlefield at Carteneau. His story was first covered in Kan-E's Tale From the Calamity, and I think it's been mentioned in-game at some point as well.

Originally Posted by Naria

Ivalice

The follow up quest with the Wandering Dramaturge was pretty funny, and I loved my character's expressions in the scene with Hancock. I'm glad we could do something nice for Drest even if I just want to stick him in my bag take him back to his home. Hey, I can transport Namazu, it would work!

So very much yes. I have been saying for ages that I just want to be able to help Drest get home. I was going to skip the dramaturge's quests (for the moment at least) but I think I'll have to do them now.

Dalmasca is finally starting to get incorporated into MSQ, with Resistance fighters as part of the Doman Alliance, so.... 5.0? Please?

Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Parley and Ghymlet Dark

Where was Merlwyb though!? Are they just ashamed of the Machinist animations or something?

I think the issue might be that she's not a machinist. She has the dual-wielding pistols that don't exist as a true class, and machinist stance/animations would only allow her to use a single gun. I think that's why we only ever see her fight in cutscenes.

Originally Posted by Naria

Yay Sleep!

Sleep? What's that? Where do I unlock it?

MSQ and Ghymlet

Considering Solus said that him and Varis were unlikely to meet again within this mortal lifetime, as well as Varis going completely wild during the negotiations, I'm fully convinced that he's there to be a sacrificial lamb- a lamp, to draw in moths. Mark my words, Black Rose is going to be unleashed, and Varis is going to be on the front lines to draw in as many sacrifices as possible. Either the countless dead move the Source back toward balance, or it forces an immense release of Light out of the WoL and throws wide the gates.

A minor thing, but if Lyse is the one to LB3 and kill the construct, she says "This is for you, Papalymo..." I always liked him, so it's good to know that he isn't forgotten.

Ivalice

So Fran serves a young princess in the Dalmascan resistance, one of the cities on the newly uncovered part of the world map was established in XII to have been part of Raithwall's empire, and it ended on a cliffhanger that featured Fran saying we'd likely meet again soon and Noah van Gabranth overseeing a research and salvage team in Goug. It's safe to assume that we'll be fighting seraphs and that Ashelia B'nargin Dalmasca will be the new Hien, right?