DPS mentality in MMOs

[KaivaC]

snip

Okay, so I'm a little bit too lazy to chop this up and address your comment point by point, so I'll just put a general thought on this. Your words about DPS popping enmity cooldowns not being normal is based on...what? How enmity is handled by other MMOs? If that's the case, XIV is not like other MMOs. The 2.5sec default GCDs should've been a big clue on that. Admittedly, my knowledge on how other MMOs handle this is limited, at best, but I disagree with your stance that this is "not normal." Enmity is one of the tank's primary responsibilities, sure, but enmity is a party responsibility. It's not that hard to just hit one little button to help the tank out.

More damage = less time spent fighting something. How is that a bad thing?

I think one thing you leave out in your assessment is that DPS job have always been more popular in MMOs. In general, people like doing big damage. Can it lead to dumb behavior? Absolutely. But really, the tools are already there for players to get through every run smoothly. If the issue over DPS was really as prevalent as you say, then premades should be having similar issues - but in general when it comes to just normal dungeons, they don't, because as you said, premades have a tendency to know what they are doing as a group. The issue is the differing playstyles that you get from PUGs.

And about your comments on mana. That is partially true, stupid tends to create problems. But you know what else is true? A particular fight dragging on for too long. Low damage numbers also contribute to mana issues and tanks eventually running out of cooldowns to use in some cases. So I'm not quite sure what you are complaining about here. This seems more like an issue of competency to me.

[Adrestia]

See here's the interesting thing that a lot of you younger gamers probably dont know.
Back in the very original MMORPG UO the whole premises of tanking was based around outputting the most damage in melee range of the boss.But this could be decided between many melee characters who was going to tank.
There werent dedicated heales either.You mostly just healed with bandages and mages that were dps focused would heal you too sometimes.
This changed over years into creating seperate classes that are tanks.

Actually back in The Realm, years before UO, we had an entirely different definition for tanks. Basically they were just what today we call melee DPS. I mean they usually had more hit points and more armor than mages, but they were there for damage. Mages were crowd control. And in UO people did all kinds of manipulation of threat and terrain, like shoving someone with armor into a chokepoint where 3 people behind could bandage him while only one monster in front could hit him, and it couldn't get through.

[Adrestia]

Okay, so I'm a little bit too lazy to chop this up and address your comment point by point, so I'll just put a general thought on this. Your words about DPS popping enmity cooldowns not being normal is based on...what? How enmity is handled by other MMOs? If that's the case, XIV is not like other MMOs. The 2.5sec default GCDs should've been a big clue on that. Admittedly, my knowledge on how other MMOs handle this is limited, at best, but I disagree with your stance that this is "not normal." Enmity is one of the tank's primary responsibilities, sure, but enmity is a party responsibility. It's not that hard to just hit one little button to help the tank out.

If you're interested, most trinity MMOs have had a pretty significant component of DPS managing their own threat.

In EQ for example, one of the "highest DPS" items a wizard could get was a pair of pants that had a right click effect that made the target forget some of their enmity. Because if you didn't have those pants, you couldn't chain nuke without pulling hate.
In WoW, especially if you weren't Alliance (Paladins had ridiculous threat management capabilities and were Alliance-only), the mantra early on was "wait for 3 sunders," which was the equivalent of "let the tank do a threat combo before you go wild."
In FFXI, well . . . Yeah, threat in FFXI was really freakin' weird. It's a long topic to go into, but the short story is that if you tried to straight up DPS without spending a great deal of time with your back turned or otherwise twiddling your thumbs, on most jobs, you were eventually gonna pull hate and die horribly. It required substantial discipline to know when you were at risk of pulling, and a quick trigger finger to switch to -physical damage taken or similar gear so that when you did get smacked on a black mage, it wasn't a one-shot.

FFXIV today is a lot more like modern WoW. Between the tools the tanks have and the tools the DPS have, you "should" never have to slow down DPS for anything. But if you don't make use of those tools, for example tanks not setting up a shirk rotation or DPS forgetting Diversion is a thing, well, you know what happens.

[KaivaC]

If you're interested, most trinity MMOs have had a pretty significant component of DPS managing their own threat.

In EQ for example, one of the "highest DPS" items a wizard could get was a pair of pants that had a right click effect that made the target forget some of their enmity. Because if you didn't have those pants, you couldn't chain nuke without pulling hate.
In WoW, especially if you weren't Alliance (Paladins had ridiculous threat management capabilities and were Alliance-only), the mantra early on was "wait for 3 sunders," which was the equivalent of "let the tank do a threat combo before you go wild."
In FFXI, well . . . Yeah, threat in FFXI was really freakin' weird. It's a long topic to go into, but the short story is that if you tried to straight up DPS without spending a great deal of time with your back turned or otherwise twiddling your thumbs, on most jobs, you were eventually gonna pull hate and die horribly. It required substantial discipline to know when you were at risk of pulling, and a quick trigger finger to switch to -physical damage taken or similar gear so that when you did get smacked on a black mage, it wasn't a one-shot.

FFXIV today is a lot more like modern WoW. Between the tools the tanks have and the tools the DPS have, you "should" never have to slow down DPS for anything. But if you don't make use of those tools, for example tanks not setting up a shirk rotation or DPS forgetting Diversion is a thing, well, you know what happens.

The closest relevant experience I had was with SWTOR during launch and again several years ago, but both times, I could only manage maybe two weeks at most before my laptop noped out on me. It's been so long that I don't even remember if the holy trinity is prevalent there as it is here and in WoW. Seems like most other MMOs that try to enter the market sort of lower or outright remove the trinity. I'm getting the impression that OP may want XIV to go that direction...but I feel that's a terrible idea for this game, if that's what they are wanting.

[MeganLynn]

I'm there to enjoy the fight itself, not to speedfarm pixel mounts. I'd rather make it harder and longer. Clearing before enrage just ends the fun early.

God bless you, you wonderful person. I wish I could find a group of people with your mentality.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

The one thing i've seen from dps is not how many people just play it, but "mentality".

How did you name a dps who just doesn't even care about letting the tank pull, about doing the mechanics, about being a good dps ?

In my opinion, I say "idiots". And I don't speak for new player or first timer's, but for veteran player.

And even if you tell them that they are doing it wrong (even with cool manners), the only thing they will respond is "STFU Noob, I'm n°1 DPS here !" or "I'm a DPS, that's none of my business" (True fact, I really encountered some of this)

I don't know what people are thinking nowadays, Just trying to match the Meta DPS isn't how you can be good.

Please, if you are a DPS, read at least this :

-Don't pull before the tank, You are a DPS
-Manage your threat, so the Tank can do more DPS easily without fear.
-Avoid AoE and respect Mechanics, so the healers don't need to heal or raise you (I have done several dungeons in DPS and I don't even needed a heal or at least not making the heal make extra stuff.)
-Use your Two Healing cooldown. The healers will thanks you

If you're just doing this, and I don't speak about DPS output, you can say that you are a good dps. And if you manage to bring an good mount of DPS on top of that, then you are a Better DPS.

[Gemina]

Hmm... I am by no means the best healer in this game, but I do consider myself to be above the average PUG healer, which isn't a difficult feat to obtain if you simply care about optimizing your gcds and ogcds during battle with other players. Keeping others healthy is the number one priority of a healer. However, it is simultaneously last on their priority list when it comes to how they spend their gcds and ogcds. Being proactive with regens and shields is how our healers stretch out DPS windows, coupled with ogcds and players avoiding the bad reduces the amount of gcds needed on hard cures. So you can stand around and wait for damage to happen, or contribute to the overall DPS of the party. There is clearly a wrong and right choice here. Even if only by default.

While the 'DPS mentality' is there, so is the need for heals and agro management which comes from our healers and tanks. They just tend to be the cogs and windy gizmos in the interior that make everything work. This is ok, and I think many healer and tank mains accept this while contributing as much as possible of their own damage.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm curious if anyone else has noticed that the game and many other MMOs have been going in the direction of DPS first tank/heals last. The crux of this has two primary issues.
1.) The developers of MMOs in general are caring less about tanks and healer then they do about DPS (development wise). Some even go as far as eliminating them altogether. (Tactical flashpoints for example).

Development goes where the things capable of being developed goes. When all mechanics boil down to maximizing DPS, with very few layers of indirectness between, then of course development will end up pointed towards DPS. They have the most ways to control damage. Mechanics are damage. Thus DPS most experience content over both lull and burst periods. Simple math there.

If you want DPS to feel less pandered to, you need less than mechanics that are more than just dealing damage while moving and minimizing damage taken only so you can continue dealing more damage.

2.) People tend to encourage dumb behavior in dungeons in favor of DPS.

The majority of encouraged behaviors are actually optimal. The amount of behaviors tolerated is a different story.

They want in and out of the instance as fast as possible.

As I said, optimal. Would you want to run with someone who finds it necessary to pay a toll of love to you, and accepts its currency only by proof of not doing what you want as quickly as you want and could otherwise do it, any longer than you have to?

I enjoy those who do what it takes to do a run about as fast as possible, and not just because it I save a bit of my own time. Consider what goes into that. I get all warm and fuzzy at a Bard moving into position for my next Aetherial Manipulation, or a Black Mage taking advantage of my Yaten-Enpi when I make sure to dodge in the direction that preps their movement. It gives off far more a sense of closeness, of "I see what you're doing and I like it," than salutations. There's tons of unspoken communication in running if you're on the look out for it, and the jokes are often more obviously found in the movement, in gradual overextension as we hype each other up for a (given current gear or the healer's skill or the nice-but-clearly-new guy's AoE damage) near-impossible massive pull. No words, yet no one is shocked when no one's angry that it didn't go right, just each laughing (save, perhaps, for the confused healer of apparently less macabre humor). That dungeon/bite-sized bit of rapport didn't come from talking over chat anywhere near as much as from watching our screens and manning our controls.

If you never see those kinds of interactions, ever, you may want to consider your own mood and perspective. Admittedly, they're more common among competent and less entitled players, who can be the minority in typical content, but they're out there, if you dare see them.

-Don't pull before the tank, You are a DPS

Yes, god forbid my Bard pull a couple distant mobs into my Overpower so I can save some TP and the healer can heal mid-pull without getting slapped about...

[Nora_of_Mira]

I don't mind the hate I'm going to get for this post I really don't, I just hope they don't ruin the game the way others have by getting rid of tank and heals altogether. Given the way things have been going that seems inevitable.

That will never happen. If they got rid of tanks and healers and threw away the Trinity, we would have the chaos that is all of those F2P MMOs that have instanced dungeons. If you haven't played them, trust me, they are complete chaos as every class is just DPS and its every man for himself.

As for your concern with balancing, it HAS to be balanced from the top-down. RDM/SAM both dont play well in low level dungeons and often steal hate because they were balanced for their endgame, high level playstyles. It's easy to make something "balanced" at low level but if its not balanced at high level, its basically unplayable. That's why its balanced top-down.

Like someone else mentioned, theres really a lot to breakdown from your post:

-people do "dumb" things in duties bc the content is created to allow "dumb" things to go unpunished. ex: in dungeons, I can stand in every AOE and keep my 100% uptime bc the damage is laughable, usually. However, this "dumbness" goes away in extreme/savage content as you get punished harshly.

-i dont think we as players know "what developers care about", IMO i think they care very deeply about tanks/healers as they're super important for this game to be playable. If they break something critical to their roles, they would lose so many tanks/healers and nothing could be run.

- IMO, i expect every DF run to be crappy. That's the only place the casual/hardcore playerbase comingle thanks to daily bonuses, so you're always going to get a mixed bag.

-Everyone has to just accept that Tanking in FFxiv is playing a DPS with defensive cooldowns. I know that's not what you or your friends like, but that's how it is. If they really want to seriously tank (plan their cooldowns effectively, manage aggro with co-tank, mitigate team damage, etc) they have to do extreme/savage content. For every story you can come up with a person leaving due to Tank woes, i can point to a person who loves tanking Savage content and all content, in general.

-Don't pull before the tank, You are a DPS
-Manage your threat, so the Tank can do more DPS easily without fear.
-Avoid AoE and respect Mechanics, so the healers don't need to heal or raise you (I have done several dungeons in DPS and I don't even needed a heal or at least not making the heal make extra stuff.)
-Use your Two Healing cooldown. The healers will thanks you

these are not DPS tips. These are general tips for EVERY class/role.

[Shurrikhan]

That will never happen. If they got rid of tanks and healers and threw away the Trinity, we would have the chaos that is all of those F2P MMOs that have instanced dungeons. If you haven't played them, trust me, they are complete chaos as every class is just DPS and its every man for himself.

Depends on the difficulty. In others, unless the mobs are chained CCed or deflected or full-dodged when tanking (yes, as in that thing that players, not just tanks, do to reduce damage taken by their raid through controlling enemy focus) through decently elaborate coordination, everyone dies. Almost instantly.

Where the difficulty isn't enough to require it, though, it doesn't happen any more often than melee each stunning one of the worms in The Burn so they can continue wailing on the mobs in the AoE pull without interruption.