DPS mentality in MMOs

[AdrenKael]

I'm curious if anyone else has noticed that the game and many other MMOs have been going in the direction of DPS first tank/heals last. The crux of this has two primary issues.
1.) The developers of MMOs in general are caring less about tanks and healer then they do about DPS (development wise). Some even go as far as eliminating them altogether. (Tactical flashpoints for example).

2.) People tend to encourage dumb behavior in dungeons in favor of DPS. They want in and out of the instance as fast as possible and care very little about anything other then doing as much damage as possible.

I understand that the first issue is because more people want to dps than tank or heal because those jobs are actually difficult and the developer has to design the game around the largest player base for it to be commercially viable but this has lead to actually having to bribe people to heal and tank. You have a few dedicated main tanks and healers who actually enjoy doing it and do it well and by putting those people last in the hierarchy of development priority you eventually have even less people who want to do it and do it well. Just in the past two months I have had 3 friends that I invited to the game (one a wicked awesome tank from another MMO and two healers) leave the game because they noticed the same thing I have. Developers have paid more attention to the DPS classes (in hours of development) then the tank and healers. I recommended the game, invited them to play even gave them the money to purchase the game and all three left after only two months. The last straw for the tank was when the DPS refused to use cooldowns to drop threat (70's in 380 gear in Dzamel Darkhold and he was a fairly new player in crafted gear). After the RDM pulled aggro and killed the healer from the cleave he was chewed out for not holding threat. This wasn't the first time things like this happened it was just the last for him. experienced tanks could have held aggro but he wasn't experienced against dumb DPS burst dmg at lower levels and I explained to him it gets easier. However, RDM is a prime example of developers designing a class around high level and not taking into account how difficult it is for lower level characters to compete. Crappy DF runs have been more common for us then most people would imagine because most people aren't dungeon fiends and don't do 20 to 30 dungeons a day like we did or it could just be for the past few months we've had nothing but bad luck in the DF but I doubt that. It's no wonder they have to bribe people to tank and heal when the easiest job to do and in most cases the one that gets you the most commendations for the least amount of effort is DPS. I don't mind the hate I'm going to get for this post I really don't, I just hope they don't ruin the game the way others have by getting rid of tank and heals altogether. Given the way things have been going that seems inevitable.

[Adrestia]

1.) The developers of MMOs in general are caring less about tanks and healer then they do about DPS (development wise). Some even go as far as eliminating them altogether. (Tactical flashpoints for example).

This has less to do with player mindset of "gotta deeps!" and more with the fact that the holy trinity is quite long in the tooth. I personally do prefer tank/heal/dps along with an appropriate support component, but the fans have been calling for action-oriented MMOs for over a decade now. Not everyone, but enough people that a lot of games have tried it/are trying it.

2.) People tend to encourage dumb behavior in dungeons in favor of DPS. They want in and out of the instance as fast as possible and care very little about anything other then doing as much damage as possible.

There's a lot to unpack here. First, dumb behavior is dumb behavior, and that includes obsessively focusing on defense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBLsjnqcXsI), bombing heals every time someone reaches 99.82% HP, crafting using delineations and 999-step whistle garbage, AND doing dumb things in the name of DPS.

Second, a large part of why you see many people wanting in and out of dungeons as fast as possible is we never wanted to be there in the first place. "Dailies" have been thrust upon the MMO genre due to a great deal of psychological manipulation to make people log on every day and stay subbed for fear of missing out. The rewards are set high enough that we grudgingly trundle along through these dailies because it's efficient, but that doesn't mean it's fun. Especially if the only mantra is "play it incredibly safe" which, to those of us who have run the dungeon 3000x but also don't want to watch Netflix, is most challenging because of the risk of falling asleep in our chairs.

Third, and this does follow the second a bit, the reward structure only rewards fast clears. There are no extra tomestones for least damage taken, maximum HP restoration, or any metrics other than the binary "did you complete the dungeon?" And completing the dungeon happens through damage. Nothing dies because it's being tanked. Nothing dies because you're healing. It may be a depressing utilitarian way to look at it, but tanking and healing are the things that let you do damage more effectively (by virtue of not being dead).

None of that is to say that tanking and healing aren't important. They are effectively force multipliers. Having some of each vastly increases your damage and the jobs that tank and heal are heavily valued. But you can have "too much" tanking or healing. You can never (outside of certain bugs) have "too much" damage.

[NocturniaUzuki]

While I would disagree that DPS classes are easy to play in this game (I can't keep track of the complexity of their rotations, so playing them at a high level is too much for me), I would at least agree that MMOs in general (not just FF14) have a hopeless obsession with DPS.

I understand the logic behind it. Ultimately, when you get down to optimization, everything does break down to minimizing tanking/healing in order to DPS more. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. Getting hung up on it is the issue. It's players' mindset towards it. People get pointlessly frustrated at anyone who can't or doesn't want to optimize. They get in petty arguments about how or how not to optimize "correctly", when what really matters are that satisfactory results are achieved one way or another. To be honest, I'm guility of this at times too, but I do think I'm usually more patient than others.

People compete to see how fast they can get through content, instead of taking the time to experience the content. I've always wondered why, in a game with scripted boss encounters that we learn like a theatrical performance, everyone seems to want the performance to end early. I mean, as an example, why busk on the side of the road if you just stop your performance the moment someone gives you a reward? Aren't you supposed to be out there because you like performing at least as much as you want the money? The same goes for FF14 in my opinion. I'm there to enjoy the fight itself, not to speedfarm pixel mounts. I'd rather make it harder and longer. Clearing before enrage just ends the fun early.

People only care about bettering themselves if they see it as a direct means to more quickly acquiring their material rewards. Use this buff. Use that buff. Use this rotation. Peoples' idea of optimization is skewed towards numbers, rather than consistency. Again using the performance rhetoric, that would be like focusing entirely on each performer's individual performance, and less on being in-sync as a team. Who wants to watch a dance number in a musical where every performer executes their moves perfectly in isolation, but is completely out of sync with the group choreography. It would be painful to watch.

Anyways, that's enough geeking out from me. I got a bit off topic anyways.

[EaMett]

Your story sounds more like misinformation on the DPS' end than an actually issue with game design. DPS should keep their aggro in check period. Even if that means they stop dpsing. If dps is too slow because of an aggro cap, blame the tank sure but don't grab aggro and complain about grabbing aggro. That's like shooting someone and then complaining they didn't move from in front of your gun.

Also there's no way DPS get more commendations than healer or tank, not even close.

There are also more dps classes than healers and tanks combined so it may look like they take care of dps more but it seems pretty much even. Sure some healer/tank issues stay unresolved for longer but it's just because it's more complex to balance for combinations of mitigation/healing/dps as they all affect one another. In comparison, just balancing dps is more straightforward.

Lastly DPS is a huge part of QoL when running any content. The faster stuff dies, the less you need to worry about mana, the less stuff can go wrong, the less time you spend in content you've farmed hundreds of times, etc.. etc.. Yes this does indeed encourage some behavior like BLM standing in aoes, tanks dropping tank stance, and so forth. Everyone is tugging on the lifeline rope at all times and a big part of the fun of such games is finding a good balance.

[Ryaz]

The problem is the just the way the holy trinity is designed. There will always be a minimum requirement to successfully tank or heal everything, unless every enemy is nearly one shotting people. Even then, there's a limit to how much you need to absorb and heal. But until every mob gets one shot from damage, more DPS is ALWAYS desirable.

It does cause issues. I remember in The Secret World, fist and blood healers were much better at healing than assault rifle leech healers. But leech healers could easily keep people alive, if not as efficiently, AND add a good amount of dps to the overall group, making kills faster and reducing the chance something could go wrong as the fight drags on. All tanks were built the same, with stats to reduce penetration chance (the only really dangerous mechanic) with block to just the amount necessary, then the rest was pumped into damage because you didn't need any more defense after that. Extra avoidance meant nothing when you were taking steady, easy to heal damage, so it became all about more damage is always needed.

[Metalwrath]

See here's the interesting thing that a lot of you younger gamers probably dont know.
Back in the very original MMORPG UO the whole premises of tanking was based around outputting the most damage in melee range of the boss.But this could be decided between many melee characters who was going to tank.
There werent dedicated heales either.You mostly just healed with bandages and mages that were dps focused would heal you too sometimes.
This changed over years into creating seperate classes that are tanks.
Tanks now being defined with skills that seperatly generated agro as opposed to just raw damage.And to have skills and equipment restrictions so that they are now designed to soak damage.
And they have also designed the healer classes which is now a mage that is more focused with spells to heal and buff the tank/dps.

The main reason though i believe dps are more popular is the free movement of the classes.If you look at tanks they are mostly stationary for fights.
A lot of people wont find that exciting.
Same with healers.A lot would feel that they arent involved enough in the action and spend too much time waiting around to heal people.

When you are playing a dps though you arent tied around to those restrictions.You can move around as much as you want and not really worry about enemies killing you.
This is a lot more appealing to casual gamers and probably why there is a much bigger skill disparity between those who tank or heal and those who dps.

To further add to the point about casuals prefering dps.Look at the changes they made to dragoon.They removed some positionals because people complained about it.They removed bard casting and mch casting because people wanted to run around while dpsing.
Monk got massive cd decrease on perfect balance because casuals couldnt keep up stacks and to compensate for their lack of ability to hit positionals.
And when Samurai was brought in they made sure to keep positionals to a minimum.
These were all because like i said a lot of dps players like to free roam in fights.They dont want to be stuck having to attack certain ways or positions.

[Derio]

That is true however we have all seen where the holy trinity is broken and everyone is a dps type of MMO fails ( cough cough Guild Wars 2 cough).

But in all seriousness people like to see big damage numbers. Even in games that dont have designated roles, there are things required to support the party as MMOs inspire people to work together.


I dont see them getting rid of tanks and healers all together as that has been the staple for ff games as there has always been a tanky character and the character that looks after the party.


The population breakdown is still very good with over 20% playing tank and over 20% playing healer.

As long as those numbers are over the 20% threshold the game is doing well

[Dyvid]

K. So the problem isn't DPS, it's time. People want to be as fast as possible; this requires everyone to do their job. Tanks have to hold agro, healers have to heal, and DPS must yes DPS.

Since the OP picked dungeon as an example let's use that. Dungeon runs for years now have require the tanks to pick up two to three packs of mobs, hold them, while the healer keeps the tank alive and the dps burn through them as fast as possible. If the tank isn't holding agro, they aren't doing their job to peak performance. If tank dies, most likely healer is the weak link. And if it takes forever to kill the group, DPS are to blame. Optimize runs require a perfect circle.

The Devs give each role the tools they need to do their job and it works fine in FFXIV save for in role problems, but I have never been in a raid where the tank loses agro to dps. OP, I'm not trying to hate on you but that scenario you mention the tank wasn't doing his agro management correctly. Level and gear had nothing to do with it at your level because it's all sync'ed down to fit your group.

Tanks control the flow of battle, healers keep the party alive, and DPS are damage dealers.

[AdrenKael]

Your story sounds more like misinformation on the DPS' end than an actually issue with game design. DPS should keep their aggro in check period. Even if that means they stop dpsing. If dps is too slow because of an aggro cap, blame the tank sure but don't grab aggro and complain about grabbing aggro. That's like shooting someone and then complaining they didn't move from in front of your gun.

Also there's no way DPS get more commendations than healer or tank, not even close.

Yes this does indeed encourage some behavior like BLM standing in aoes, tanks dropping tank stance, and so forth. Everyone is tugging on the lifeline rope at all times and a big part of the fun of such games is finding a good balance.

1.) It's not normal to see a DPS pop a threat reduction cooldown in DF dungeons. So I don't think it's really misinformation but bad habits taught by the "Don't even move the mouse cursor or allow the half second delay for the cooldown cause moar deeps!!!!" attitude.

2.) Its not about getting more comms its about the most comms for the least amount of effort.

3.) My whole point of more development time is based on the fact there are more variety in DPS than in tank/heals. That's why it's more boring to play tank/heals couple that with the stress of the group's success hangs on the balance of whether or not you do your job well = less people doing it. Dps is a way less stressful position to play in dungeons than healer for example.

4.) The point of worrying about MP or mana is only viable when you're not having to heal through stupid. Which is what the DPS mentality breeds; Stand in stupid to cut half a second off the encounter = way less MP left over at the end of the fight. You are right about there being a balance but that balance is shot to pieces when the DPS mentality cuts in. Tanks fight over aggro because it proves they do more dps and ignore adds and the healer has to heal through it. DPS stand in stupid to get that last half of that spell cast so they don't suffer a .5 dps penalty.

These issues never come into play really when you're in a premade. Everyone knows each other and they actually care about the group as a whole. You don't have that "group" mentality in DF pugs. You have the "gotta get mines" attitude. The majority of what you find there is I don't care if you have to work 5 times harder if I can get out of this dungeon faster. Problem is you don't get the adventurer in need bonus in premades. Not that doing so would make any sense. So yea most of my dungeon xp has been in DF pugs. Which is where the DPS mentality is at its worst.

[AppleJinx]

Man the excuses people come up with to justify being lazy and carry by their groups in an mmo smh