I liked Eureka

[Vahlnir]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but overall I think it was wasted resources and potential. Anemos set the stage for it to be something decent. Then Pagos came along and it seems like the devs made it as a punishment of sorts...how DARE we play Eureka the way we did in Anemos?! Pyros is honestly the first (and possibly the last) addition where I feel they got more things right than wrong. We'll just have to wait and see what Hydatos brings. If they were trying to capture that "old school MMO" feel...I think they failed horribly. They basically took everything wrong with older MMOs and meshed it all together.

[Adrestia]

Was it honestly a punishment, like out of malice? Or did they perhaps just want to steer the course back to their vision?

I mean you can be displeased about the second too, it’s all opinion and the zones were undeniably not for everyone. But if they hadn’t changed things radically, Pagos just would have been Anemos with snow, and that’s not what they were trying to make.

[BillyKaplan]

Was it honestly a punishment, like out of malice? Or did they perhaps just want to steer the course back to their vision?

If users end up using your system in a way that you didn't plan for/think of, and on top of that are hard to make run the content at all without it, stomping your foot down and creating one of the least user friendly experiences I have seen in a game is nothing short of a childish tantrum. How dare they play the game not the way we intended it to.
Award rates were tuned too low, overcompensating for Anemos' bounty. The map itself was a nightmare to navigate and punished low level players who teamed up with high level players because if you wanted any hope to reach an NM the higher level player had to be with a mount, a two-seater at that, and was likely to miss out on the NM because if you want to go from point A to point B in Pagos, you have to zig zag across half the map and pray you remembered the walk toggle before the dragon. Now imagine that without someone to taxi you, and it gets all the worse even if you stick to the low level areas. Half the map is one way only, so if you jumped down a cliff - which you oftentimes have to do, and oftentimes you miss - you have to go half a map around, and hope you've attuned to the nearest aetheryte, which you won't even be able to do for half your time in there.

The map is, by design, one of the unintuitive, user-unfriendly, spiteful designs I've seen in a game in a long time.

Pagos just would have been Anemos with snow, and that’s not what they were trying to make.

And while I respect that sentiment, the userbase spoke very loudly by actions by riding the train in Anemos, and then hefty portions of even the people who completed that didn't touch Pagos because we saw enough of their vision in Anemos and the response was a resounding 'no'. So instead of listening and giving us what actually worked for us (which they did two areas later in Pyros, I suppose) they did everything in their power to not let us do that. Which is childish, petty, and arguably unprofessional. If your users say they don't want something, you don't go 'but you actually do'. And then you backpedal on it for Pyros. So Pagos remains as the unloved child and it makes sense because what SE poured into it wasn't love and care - it was spite and vengefulness at their paying customers not adhering to their vision.

[Adrestia]

I'm all for emergent gameplay, but sometimes a crafted experience is nice too. I haven't seen any statements from SE that they were mad at players for using Anemos "wrong" to indicate that they had any reason to want revenge. They just didn't succeed with their goal and didn't feel the game needed another train.

I just don't see the spite, vengefulness, childishness, or any of that. If I'm an example of the target audience they had in mind when they made Anemos, then I can tell you I would have quit Eureka if Pagos was more of the same, and instead I didn't.

So rather than continue making *more* braindead easy content for the zerg train, who already had FATEs, Hunts, and Anemos, they finally made some content for another crowd in Pagos. So while from your perspective they let you down or even assaulted you with Pagos, from my perspective they stuck it out despite the negative feedback and made something that works for an underserved audience.

Pagos is certainly the loved-by-less-people child, but there are people in this thread and who I see in Pagos regularly who love it. SE set out to make content that was for a specific group of people, the way Anemos shook out they failed there (but succeeded for a different, albeit larger audience), and they took another swing in Pagos.

[BillyKaplan]

I haven't seen any statements from SE that they were mad at players for using Anemos "wrong" to indicate that they had any reason to want revenge.

They're never going to admit that sort of thing explicitly, obviously. But it's impossible to look at Pagos and not wonder if it was in response to Anemos. Because they could've easily donet this in Anemos from the start, and could've stayed with it in Pyros, too. But they took away what made Anemos work for people, Pagos flopped, and people didn't bother with Eureka again until Pagos was nerfed and Pyros offered something different. I don't need too big a tinfoil hat to see what's going on here.

So rather than continue making *more* braindead easy content for the zerg train

So they made easy, braindead content for full parties instead. You'll forgive me for not thinking this is an improvement. I joined an anubys party yesterday and it wasn't the most engaging, rewarding content I've ever ran.

from my perspective they stuck it out despite the negative feedback and made something that works for an underserved audience.

Sticking to your guns when hefty portions of your playerbase hate it isn't admirable. It's a bad business decision. Especially for something that wasn't meant to be niche content but one of the expansion's selling points.

[Reynhart]

But it's impossible to look at Pagos and not wonder if it was in response to Anemos.

It's very easy to do that, since Pagos was already completed when Anemos was released (They stated that numerous times). So, there was no Anemos feedback (good or bad) taken to tweak Pagos.

[Laphael]

If users end up using your system in a way that you didn't plan for/think of, and on top of that are hard to make run the content at all without it, stomping your foot down and creating one of the least user friendly experiences I have seen in a game is nothing short of a childish tantrum. How dare they play the game not the way we intended it to.

Reading some of the comments here i just want to make clear:
They said in an Interview, that Pagos was already done when Anemos was released.
No feedback from Anemos (player or dev sided) was implemented in Pagos!
They did not punish the players for the train. Pagos just wasn´t balanced with the train in mind.

I although think, that pagos was the worst part; just wanted everyone to know this facts.

[Mansion]

Reading some of the comments here i just want to make clear:
They said in an Interview, that Pagos was already done when Anemos was released.
No feedback from Anemos (player or dev sided) was implemented in Pagos!
They did not punish the players for the train. Pagos just wasn´t balanced with the train in mind.

I although think, that pagos was the worst part; just wanted everyone to know this facts.

THANK YOU.
I'm so tired of reading this all over again.

Although, there is a choice regardless of that because in Pagos, NM will nevertheless give you less XP and the amount of Pagos crystal needed is high (I believe they said it would be nerfed in 4.5 though). So it combines this lack of feed back and also the need for a slower-paced relic step.


I liked Eureka as well actually. That's the first instance where I really felt like playing a MMORPG, because you need player interaction, coordination... There has been some salt in the Shout chat, but that's also the place where I had the most fun with random people. Sure it had a lot of flaws on its beginings but now it's far more enjoyable and even if I completed the two weapons I main, I still hop in from time to time.
That does not mean I want more content like this one in the next expansion though. But Eureka improves on the Diadem, and a 5.0 area improving on Eureka could be interesting somehow... just don't lock the relic there and you'll see less people yelling at it everywhere

[Alucard135]

THANK YOU.
I'm so tired of reading this all over again.

You're not the only one lol. And not only that, I'm tired of hearing about Eureka is bad because it's filled with grind and RNG and prefer ARR and HW relic quests. It's like people forgot about Atma, luminous crystals and light grind + the horrible RNG in some of those. The RNG needed to get the relic in Erueka is really not bad at all (Pagos not included lol). If we're gonna talk about the other items' RNG from bunny fates and NM boss drops for 6th magicite, then those are optional items and not needed for the relic, since a lot has been saying if it wasn't for the relic, they wouldn't have done this.

If we want the content to get better, we should identify issues that can drastically improve on the content. Just shouting RNG and grind is not gonna work because let's face it..There will always be grind and RNG in MMOs and there are people who like to grind like that (I don't, but just take a look at EX farm parties). For me personally I narrowed down the issues to four points:
1- Being an instanced zone: You can't do anything else while being there. And I get why they had to do that, but it would be nice if they can make it an open world map.
2- No level syncing: This would help a lot of new players wanting to group up with others but can't now due to the level gap and impact on EXP gain (This is probably the biggest reason why some can't find a party as they said in this thread).
3- No extra stuff to do in the zone, such as quests or points for exploration of dangerous zones
4- Losing EXP when dying: If there was no penalty in dying you'd see more people out there and exploring instead of just parking near aetherytes cuz it's safer.

[Zarkovitch]

Meet me at Tim Hortons we gonna settle this once for all with arguments.