Gating interesting content behind artificial side leveling

[BillyKaplan]

But so is any leveling system in any game, if im forced to think of it that way.

And you'll note that leveling is considered a chore by many players, and if people can find a way to make it faster or cheese through it, they would. To the point the devs have given us story and level boosts. Now, they did make a point of asking you to at least look over the Unending Journey when you pop the story potion, because there's still a separation between the actual story that you get to see in the Unending Journey, and the billions of fetch quests we're supposed to drag ourselves though and that SE themselves said they'd look into weeding out in the future. So I can't even say that MSQ isn't content, just that it's badly designed and there's a lot of horrible fluff entangled with the actual content. That's why SE still asks you to look that over in the inn room. Leveling, though?
Leveling isn't content so much as it's a chore. AST, MCH and DRK all started at 30. RDM and SAM started at 50. I don't think we'll ever see any new proper jobs starting off at a lower level. And even BLU, not only can we have this exact same debate about it too, BLU itself isn't gated behind levels so much as enemy skills. So even BLU doesn't operate fully by this rule-set.

to me, your question feels like its poking at the very fundamentals of this game's creation/existence. "why does FFxiv or Eureka exist?". to me that's the same as "why does Savage/Ultimate exist, or lalafells".

Those questions really aren't comparable though. They're on different scopes, even your own examples. But see the thing is, outside of Eureka, leveling actually does serve a point. Not even IC because RDM and SAM showed us that was rubbish as soon as you get your Soul Crystal, but OOC - you legitimately need to learn how to play your job, and we've seen some complaints about RDM and SAM starting as high as they did because it presented an overwhelming learning curve.
Leveling serves no such purpose in Eureka. It's points set in arbitrary times in your leveling process to gate story and aetheryte progress. Now, if they had actually tied the whole thing to your relic, with Krile saying something along the lines of "you need a stronger weapon to proceed because this place is unique, go talk to Gerolt", that would've been another story, and actually would've given the weapon meaning beyond a carrot to force people into Eureka for. They did it in PotD and HoH. But it doesn't work that way here. And with the challenge log giving as big a buff as it does, you can power through your leveling at a pretty impressive pace, making any justification leveling in that place had all the more hollow and false.

You need to grind the living daylight out of that place already. There's no good reason beyond artificial extension of the content's life to let you start that grind when you're about ready to leave the zone and proceed to the next one. Light grind in Pagos starts at 25 - you had probably seen several NMs and mutated enemies by then. You can only get Louhi's crystals from the NM fate starting at 34 - I have been to several Louhi NMs already and I have only hit 34 today. I have seen no crystals from it, obviously.
Leveling in Eureka is punishment. Nothing more.

[ApolloGenX]

I skipped Eureka and I don't care about this dungeon. All it means is one less thing in the update that I care about.

I'm a filthy casual. I don't mind or care if they are giving grind lovers something to enjoy. Good for them. Eureka has been a mess, so I wouldn't expect much out of this- but you never know! Either way, it won't be relevant for long, so who cares?

[odintius]

Just going to wait till out to see what the relics look like not going to waste my time on this if not that and the incoming nerds. /Shrugs

[Haxaan]

You basically admitted Eureka is boring. So I don't see why people should run it as much as they do because it encourages the devs to make more boring, uninspired content.



Reread my post because I said the exact opposite. Savage and Ultimate are both on the same "casual" axis - the content difficulty one. Yoshi himself said that people who completed Eureka don't have to run that Dungeon because it's "too stressful". It's content not intended for that crowd in the first place. So locking it behind Eureka is obviously meant not for the people already running Eureka, but the people who don't, and want more engaging, interesting content. This is even more an obvious "please run Eureka" than locking the relic itself behind Eureka was - and that was pretty obvious.

I know you said the opposite, hence why I said your logic could be used to defend the other side. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't true. You are to blinded by your hate for Eureka to see it. I think you are reading Yoshi's words incorrectly as well. He said people who finish Eureka do not have to run the dungeon, as you do not need to clear it to progress the story. The Dungeon is supposed to be an extra present for people who have stuck with Eureka this whole time and would like some challenging content. Think of it like PoTD. Once you clear lvl 50 the story is over, but if you'd like to continue going for a more challenging experience you may. I feel like a lot of people are complaining because they chose to not do content and now they feel like they have to because there is a goody they don't get to have without working for it. Same with the Relic. We ALL knew the relic was going to be tied to Eureka when Eureka was very first announced. No one seemed to care about it at the time because the hardcore people who always get their relic were going to do the content regardless of what it was. There are plenty of people who actually like Eureka, myself included, so I am excited to be able to try my hand at the Dungeon, even if it sucks. There are plenty of things to do in this game, not all content is made for everyone. And to use your own logic, there are two types of Casual, content and time. Just because Savage and Ultimate is content, Relic and Eureka are time. If you don't want to put in the time, then I'm sorry, you don't get to do the Dungeon.

[BillyKaplan]

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Please space your text so people can have an easier time replying to you, thanks.

I know you said the opposite, hence why I said your logic could be used to defend the other side. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't true. You are to blinded by your hate for Eureka to see it.

That in and of itself is something I can throw back at you, you realize that, yes? Be it because you like it and don't want people to hate it, or because having spent so much time into it, you feel obligated to defend it. No one here is objective so pointing out someone isn't isn't really tilting the balance of the debate either way. At best it's kind of pointless, at worst it's an ad hominem. And just because someone hates Eureka doesn't mean their reasons for it are weak or illogical - or that the hate came first, mind.

Think of it like PoTD.

But it's not. The time sink required for PotD and Eureka is incomperable. The amount of time it take you to clear Eureka the once, even with some nerfs, is comparable maybe to how long it takes you to get down to the deepest floor in PotD. And it's still a gradual progression in difficulty. It's not like what Yoshi said, where it's a raid at the end of what is difficulty wise (to set apart from time-sink wise) possibly the single most casual content in the game. It's like clearing HM -> Extreme/Savage -> Ultimate. More of the same just harder. From what Yoshi said, Eureka is not even on the same content axes as the dungeon. So no, it's nothing like PotD.

We ALL knew the relic was going to be tied to Eureka when Eureka was very first announced. No one seemed to care about it at the time

Because they kept saying it'd be nothing like Diadem. But it's arguably worse.

There are plenty of things to do in this game, not all content is made for everyone.

Eureka was one of the expansion's selling points. They can try and backpedal all they want by saying it wasn't meant for everyone, but at this point it just sounds like excuses because of how badly it failed. Eureka took development time away from other content. It's the only type of content we have to throw ourselves at. If it's not meant for everyone, by all means, release content aimed at other demographics and not just Eureka. But they're not doing it because Eureka was, in fact, aimed at the wider demographic, and they don't have the time and resources to give viable alternatives. A case can be made as to why despite saying how difficult it is to release a new job outside of an expansion release, they're releasing BLU at 4.5 - because it was stable enough and it gives people something to do that isn't Eureka.

If you don't want to put in the time, then I'm sorry, you don't get to do the Dungeon.

but that's what I'm saying - you shouldn't have to go through one content type to get to the other, that's the fallacy here. And in fact has always been the trade off - either you complete difficult content, or you invest a lot of time in something not as difficult. But now they're tying one to the other, breaking that mold. and it was a mold that made sense, is the problem.

[Elladie]

I'm in a FC of FFXI veteran who completed all endgame content up to TOAU when it was relevant (absolute virtue aside, obviously), myself included. And absolutely no one in this crowd find Eureka to be well designed or interesting. Then please explain to me who anemos, pagos and hydros were intended to because I'm very interested in the reply. From our perspective it s just old fate farming like in 2.X in areas slightly harder to navigate with some FFXI "fan service".

I'm also a founder member of an FC begun by XI players who met there - oh my goodness - fifteen years ago, and we have thoroughly enjoyed Eureka from the start. Yeah the afk-ers are annoying, especially when they all start complaining because no one waited for them to come all the way from town. But what you're dismissing as 'fan-service' (this is a bad thing?) we've loved and had a lot of fun with. So please don't assume you're speaking for other people. I understand that a lot of folks haven't enjoyed Eureka, I'm really sorry you haven't had the fun with it I've had.

Personally I can't understand why anyone does roulettes and I loathe the duty finder. I think the negative effect it's had on the community outweighs any benefits. But that's just my opinion, so I don't make threads insisting that the duty finder has to go, because if I hate it, so must everyone else, right? I do dungeons because sometimes I have to in order to progress story. I don't enjoy it but if I want to experience the story, I have no choice. If you want to experience the 'public dungeon' at the conclusion of Eureka, do the content needed to get there

[Stanelis]

if you're arguing Eureka isn't content, idk what to tell you. If we want to continue to break it down piece by piece, Yes, the leveling system is just a time gate to prolong the content and is "useless". But so is any leveling system in any game, if im forced to think of it that way.

to me, your question feels like its poking at the very fundamentals of this game's creation/existence. "why does FFxiv or Eureka exist?". to me that's the same as "why does Savage/Ultimate exist, or lalafells".

I am not smart enough to answer these questions.

It is content, what isn't are the artificial elemental level stuff. Also, as per my topic, I m discussing the elemental level side of eureka, not the whole thing (even if it is tied together). Also, leveling systems aren't necessarily time gates (they can be in older MMORPG, in an era where devloppers though it'd make people sub longer) if they are matched with relevant content and character growth.

Personally I can't understand why anyone does roulettes and I loathe the duty finder. I think the negative effect it's had on the community outweighs any benefits. But that's just my opinion, so I don't make threads insisting that the duty finder has to go,

I'm not saying eureka needs to go, I m saying it needs to be improved. That public dungeon thing is an improvement from what we had before, but that doesn't impact anemos, pyros and pagos.

Yeah the afk-ers are annoying, especially when they all start complaining because no one waited for them to come all the way from town.

So basically you also indicate in your post that there are stuff to be improved. Because people wouldn't be afk if they were hitting for more than 30 to the mobs required to spawn the next fate. And that's why the elemental level system doesn't work in the first place (it would, but if you had less levels in each areas or if each area was bigger).

[Derio]

Why? The alternate leveling is because Eureka has certain elements that break the game. The leveling system is an illusion to make you believe you are in a different time and space that adheres to different rules in which you do with logos actions and the elemental wheel.

Really this doesnt need to be explained if you have been keeping up with the live letters and interviews around Eureka or have done Eureka content.

The dungeon is optional and it is as they said similar to a savage version of a 24 man raid.

Even so Yoshi stated you have to obtain an item to even be able to enter the dungeon so AFKers will need to stop afking and actually do something to enter the dungeon.
Anemos, and pagos are getting a buff in 4.5 so leveling can be easier and getting through the relic will be easier.

Finally the dungeon is related to Eureka story and if you havent been doing Eureka then you can always catch up.

My question is if the OP didnt care for Eureka and we knew a public dungeon was coming in the last area before pagos was released, why complain about it now?

[BillyKaplan]

Why? The alternate leveling is because Eureka has certain elements that break the game. The leveling system is an illusion to make you believe you are in a different time and space that adheres to different rules in which you do with logos actions and the elemental wheel.

Anemos, and pagos are getting a buff in 4.5 so leveling can be easier and getting through the relic will be easier.

It's almost like leveling in Eureka is ultimately meaningless so that's the first thing they're hacking and slashing at.

Finally the dungeon is related to Eureka story and if you havent been doing Eureka then you can always catch up.

Then why did Yoshi say Eureka-goers don't have to do it? You yourself said it was like Savage, do you know what happened after ARR? they took the story away from Savage and that's how normal mode raids were born.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

I get some people like the non-stop zerg-style leveling. Personally to me, it isn't healthy to depend/demand my progress on other people's speed/aptitude. It's not a matter of preference, it's a restriction. The main issue to me here is more and more baseline features of this game: quests, relic (job gear progression), and now a public dungeon, are hidden behind that unhealthy restriction which ultimately is unnecessary no matter how far/high the devs set its progress/limit. There are fewer people who actually care/know about its mechanics than the random people in regular leveling dungeon, this much is enough to scrap that restriction. All I want is for this game to be the game again, put contents on it, not put them inside another game and call/hype that game as content when its parent need them as much.