Gating interesting content behind artificial side leveling

[Stanelis]

You're a few months late to the party in all honesty. Why are you suddenly interested in Eureka now that 'dungeon' has been slapped onto it? I enjoy the story for Eureka but even I can admit that it's implementation has been a right mess from the get go. It having a public dungeon doesn't suddenly make it 'interesting'

I did anemos, it was terrible. Pagos was worst, I didn't find the motivation to keep grinding there.

The hydros public dungeon wasn't announced back then, if SE had told me that they ll implement this sort of stuff, maybe I'd have stuck to it. I can't find the motivation to grind for a shiny weapon but I can find some to unlock decent content.

Essentially what you're saying is that you want the content to be more easily accessible for people who didn't spend time leveling in eureka for one reason or another. Whereas Yoshida has stated on multiple occasions that Eureka was designed to be content for old school MMO players who enjoy long grinds and grueling endgame content. In this very interview he says the public dungeon is not "casual" content, and casual players should avoid it.

No I just want something that makes sense, the current elemental level system doesn't (the magia board or pyros abilities system are good ideas but the elemental level side of things really isn't working when there is such a spread in level in singles areas). But I won't delve into the details as it is a topic beaten to death. The issue isn't that there is grind or whatever but that the current eureka grind makes no sense. Furthermore, I see it as a problem that what you farm outside eureka don't really translate into eureka with the ilvl sync : if there was a reason to go fish in omega savage for gear to be used in interesting eureka content (like that public dungeon, as it really sounds interesting), maybe some people would find the motivation to go there and farm for gear.

So to answer your question, why is there an alternate leveling system ? Because it was designed that way to be a long grind on purpose. The public dungeon is content for the type of people who enjoy these kinds of grinds. If you don't like it, it just means you're not one of the people this content was intended for and you don't have to do it.

I don't think you really understand my point, the issue here isn't the grind (that isn't even long, just boring, tedious and ridiculous in its implementation, I don't know about hydros but pagos is like 90 % waiting, 5 % killing glorified trashs mobs you already fought and 5 % fighting fate NMs that range from not really interesting to mildly entertaining). Also, there are no correlation between liking public dungeons and alternative leveling system or grinds.

Also as someone who understand the joke of finding 2 minautors in a cavern after a slide in a snowy area I m pretty sure I m the people targeted with eureka (it's a direct reference to a BCNM in uleguerand range in FFXI).

[Haxaan]

I did anemos, it was terrible. Pagos was worst, I didn't find the motivation to keep grinding there.

The hydros public dungeon wasn't announced back then, if SE had told me that they ll implement this sort of stuff, maybe I'd have stuck to it.



No I just want something that makes sense, the current elemental level system doesn't. But I won't delve into the details as it is a topic beaten to death. The issue isn't that there is grind or whatever but that the current eureka grind makes no sense.

So basically... if you had known there would be a reward for finishing Eureka you would have stuck it out? Well now you know there is one, no one is stopping you from going back into Eureka. It isn't going anywhere.

[Stanelis]

So basically... if you had known there would be a reward for finishing Eureka you would have stuck it out? Well now you know there is one, no one is stopping you from going back into Eureka. It isn't going anywhere.

Yes if I knew there was a point in partaking in terribly poorly implemented content I'd have stuck to it, but that's totally beside the point discussed here. It should be in everybody's best interest to discuss game design elements of the game to improve the game. Because right now, nobody can honestly tell me eureka is well designed.

The public dungeon was mentioned as early as when we first learned about the Logos system. In fact, nearly every time the Logos system has been brought up in interviews and liveletters, it's been mentioned that you should familliarize yourself with it because it will be very important for the upcomming "Public Dungeon" in the fourth Eureka zone. This was before we even knew the name of Pyros.

I don't think that s what was said. It was said that the complexity of the systems implemented would rise with each eureka areas.

What would be the business logic of making an MMO inside an MMO inside an MMO ... ??

Now that's really the question we need to ask right now because if the topic isn't raised we ll end up with like 20 different leveling systems in a few years in FFXIV.

[MariaArvana]

I don't think that s what was said. It was said that the complexity of the systems implemented would rise with each eureka areas.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tion_on_pyros/

"第4弾ではパブリックダンジョン的なものもある
In the 4th installment there'll be something akin to a public dungeon"

This was from an interview nearly 3 months ago; the idea of a public dungeon has been around since well before Pyros launched, iirc. Arguments can be made as to how set in stone it was, but the idea and developer interest was surely there to give hints at expecting such an idea.

[Stanelis]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tion_on_pyros/

"第4弾ではパブリックダンジョン的なものもある
In the 4th installment there'll be something akin to a public dungeon"

This was from an interview nearly 3 months ago; the idea of a public dungeon has been around since well before Pyros launched, iirc. Arguments can be made as to how set in stone it was, but the idea and developer interest was surely there to give hints at expecting such an idea.

Yes but what is being presented here is totally different. It's a public dungeon, inside Eureka. Not the whole hydros, just one part of it. One of the main content flaw of Eureka is the fact that the content can be zerged down, which is adressed by this design, that is very FFXI like. Then why do we have this design only in the last installment of Eureka after 3 very boring iteration of said content, that are nothing like it ?

then it doesn't matter if they get a shiny carrot at the end or not, does it?

Last time I checked we were customers paying to take part in content. I don't really get this "carrot" mentality.

.
"Boring" is subjective, some people really enjoy it.

I'm in a FC of FFXI veteran who completed all endgame content up to TOAU when it was relevant (absolute virtue aside, obviously), myself included. And absolutely no one in this crowd find Eureka to be well designed or interesting. Then please explain to me who anemos, pagos and hydros were intended to because I'm very interested in the reply. From our perspective it s just old fate farming like in 2.X in areas slightly harder to navigate with some FFXI "fan service".

[Elladie]

I'm in a FC of FFXI veteran who completed all endgame content up to TOAU when it was relevant (absolute virtue aside, obviously), myself included. And absolutely no one in this crowd find Eureka to be well designed or interesting. Then please explain to me who anemos, pagos and hydros were intended to because I'm very interested in the reply. From our perspective it s just old fate farming like in 2.X in areas slightly harder to navigate with some FFXI "fan service".

I'm also a founder member of an FC begun by XI players who met there - oh my goodness - fifteen years ago, and we have thoroughly enjoyed Eureka from the start. Yeah the afk-ers are annoying, especially when they all start complaining because no one waited for them to come all the way from town. But what you're dismissing as 'fan-service' (this is a bad thing?) we've loved and had a lot of fun with. So please don't assume you're speaking for other people. I understand that a lot of folks haven't enjoyed Eureka, I'm really sorry you haven't had the fun with it I've had.

Personally I can't understand why anyone does roulettes and I loathe the duty finder. I think the negative effect it's had on the community outweighs any benefits. But that's just my opinion, so I don't make threads insisting that the duty finder has to go, because if I hate it, so must everyone else, right? I do dungeons because sometimes I have to in order to progress story. I don't enjoy it but if I want to experience the story, I have no choice. If you want to experience the 'public dungeon' at the conclusion of Eureka, do the content needed to get there

[Ilan]

Yes if I knew there was a point in partaking in terribly poorly implemented content I'd have stuck to it, but that's totally beside the point discussed here. It should be in everybody's best interest to discuss game design elements of the game to improve the game. Because right now, nobody can honestly tell me eureka is well designed.



I don't think that s what was said. It was said that the complexity of the systems implemented would rise with each eureka areas.



Now that's really the question we need to ask right now because if the topic isn't raised we ll end up with like 20 different leveling systems in a few years in FFXIV.

But you already knew that there i a reward at the end. Its called "wannabe" relic.

[Stanelis]

But you already knew that there i a reward at the end. Its called "wannabe" relic.

When you grow old you start not really caring about ingame items, because you can get ingame items in basically every game on the market currently.

So basically you pussied out during Pagos and now that something new and shiny is coming for those of us that continued to stick it out, you're jealous and want what you can't have? 4.55 is still 3 months away, more than enough time for you to catch up.

Captain obvious to the rescue. No I m just deploring the fact that they add something good after 3 iterations of bad content. Also, it's not jealousy as I don't have anything against people who farmed eureka, please do not put words in my mouth.

You're complaining that they gate Eureka behind...Eureka. wow, just wow...

No, they gate something different from what we used to have in eureka behind dul eureka content. That's not really the same thing. If there were public dungeons in anemos, pyros and pagos, there wouldn't be issues.

Technically, they did both. Light and Crystal farming make up the bulk of the grind in Pagos and Pyros, which was one of the major complaints at least regarding Pagos. It took far too long to progress.

That's why elemental level makes no real sense : there were already grind systems in place in eureka.

Hopefully Absolute Virtue destroys players in that public dungeon like it once did in XI. Would be great if its harder then even ultimate fights.

I'll be really disapointed if he doesn't destroy players for old time sake.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I don't think you really understand my point.

this is correct for me. I'm not really sure what your point is, unless I just assume this "public dungeon" is actually interesting content that people are going to miss out on. because if that's the case, I certainly don't care. There is tons of content in this game I knowingly miss out on because I don't craft/gather/care about ponies/make gil/run maps/do deliveries/own a house/RP(?) but missing out doesn't bother me in the slightest because I'm willingly not participating in them.


but can we really say we know exactly what we're going to get? Will it actually be interesting? And if it flops, will you still care that its gated?

[Stanelis]

this is correct for me. I'm not really sure what your point is, unless I just assume this "public dungeon" is actually interesting content that people are going to miss out on. because if that's the case, I certainly don't care. There is tons of content in this game I knowingly miss out on because I don't craft/gather/care about ponies/make gil/run maps/do deliveries/own a house/RP(?) but missing out doesn't bother me in the slightest because I'm willingly not participating in them.


but can we really say we know exactly what we're going to get? Will it actually be interesting? And if it flops, will you still care that its gated?

What I'm talking about isn't whether if the public dungeon is well designed or not (even though it is what people who played older MMORPG have been asking in FFXIV since 1.0), as only time will tell, but rather the design of the leveling system of eureka that makes no sense no matter you look at it and how this content is tied to FFXIV as a whole (as FFXIV is a game where already ilvl and vanilla leveling exist).

And even if it flops I ll still care if it is gated, because if I put a few tenth of hours leveling in pagos and pyros mostly spent waiting for fates, I'll be pretty damn pissed off if I did it to access half designed content.