Combo Action Button

[Reynhart]

What real estate are we reducing it for though? What other skill or ability are you going to put into that empty space?

The higher number of skills we might receive in Shadowbringers or the following expansion if button bloat is less of an issue...

[Seraphor]

Maybe an actually functional version of that Freeze spell you keep insulting people for possibly having on their bars?



So, we should fix spells the spells that currently make space an non-issue (because, to take your advice, just don't bind them), but not also make space for them after doing so, despite it costing absolutely nothing to make that space?

You can have both, you realize? You can have functional abilities and a non-redundant button-space. They are not mutually exclusive.

Consolidating combo's would do nothing for casters like BLM who don't have combos.
And BLM doesn't have button bloat anyway, as useless as Freeze is, it's not wasting space on my hotbar. I still manage to have my expanded xhotbars almost entirely composed of role actions, that I still almost never use in their entirety. I can only say that for BLM and RDM, every other job I find myself having to choose around 3-5 role actions to hotbar.

[Nora_of_Mira]

The fact that the GCD has to complete before it can be turned off means that you can't just use Syphon Strike as your final WS in Grit, immediately drop Grit again, and then DA-CnS or the like, though. It really ought to be shifted to an Ability (a true oGCD) or ideally an aura-cancel (same as clicking off a buff) rather than a no-recast-trigger Spell after activation, allowing you to turn it off whenever (even mid-animation in the aura-cancel's case). Very little throughput value, but a damn nice QoL change.

I would personally LOVE this QoL change, it always baffled me why it isnt this way by default. I've just had to get used to the way it works now to best of my ability.

[Shurrikhan]

Consolidating combo's would do nothing for casters like BLM who don't have combos.

There was no mention of "combos" there...

Not all mutually exclusive actions are combos. Fell Cleave and Inner Beast aren't, yet they're mutually exclusive. Fire IV and Blizzard IV aren't, yet they're mutually exclusive. RDM could, with zero loss to player control, consolidate 2-3 slots (>ZH>RD; Jolt II>Impulse). BLM can consolidate 2 (F4<>B4; LL>BtL).

And BLM doesn't have button bloat anyway, as useless as Freeze is, it's not wasting space on my hotbar. I still manage to have my expanded xhotbars almost entirely composed of role actions, that I still almost never use in their entirety. I can only say that for BLM and RDM, every other job I find myself having to choose around 3-5 role actions to hotbar.

That others jobs are more poorly or bloated-ly made doesn't mean an otherwise well-designed job has to remain laden with what design inefficiencies (again, nothing to do with gameplay, only redundant button-space due to mutually exclusive abilities) it has, to only be considered after all other jobs are paired down in button count (where that may, in their case, require changes to actual gameplay).

[Sigma-Astra]

Maybe an actually functional version of that Freeze spell you keep insulting people for possibly having on their bars?

Well, it's not so much of an insult as it's just common sense to not put something on your hotbar that fundamentally has no use or reason to be there in the first place. But, thanks for regurgitating again what I already said in the following paragraphs of my previous response, so I'm not entirely sure why your passive aggressive snippet above was even necessary. Any person who actually mains BLM competitively or smart would not have it on their bar, the same can be said for people who main Monk and their grievances with the ability One Ilm Punch.

So, we should fix spells the spells that currently make space an non-issue (because, to take your advice, just don't bind them), but not also make space for them after doing so, despite it costing absolutely nothing to make that space?

You can have both, you realize? You can have functional abilities and a non-redundant button-space. They are not mutually exclusive.

We should fix the spells that we have problems with first, then after doing so, we can re-evaluate if we still need the additional space since BLM has no button bloat at the moment to speak of like Seraphor had said earlier.

The higher number of skills we might receive in Shadowbringers or the following expansion if button bloat is less of an issue...

And addressing both of your complaints in one shot, we don't know what or how many skills we may be getting, if they even feel like adding new abilities with the next expansion, so why are we jumping the gun and getting paranoid about something that's still a year or so away. I can see focusing on the jobs that absolutely might need some skill pruning now, but we don't really need to waste additional time on jobs that haven't reached that threshold yet either.

Reduce the bloat on jobs that may already have it, and then focus on re-working skills that are useless now, so they're not still useless when the next expansion rolls around and we're left at square one still.

Just because some jobs may need it, doesn't mean we need to suddenly enforce the policy on all jobs at once.

[Reynhart]

And addressing both of your complaints in one shot, we don't know what or how many skills we may be getting, if they even feel like adding new abilities with the next expansion, so why are we jumping the gun and getting paranoid about something that's still a year or so away.

Because they already said that button bloat was a reason for why they didn't add as many skills in SB than in HW. And that it's better to suggest a solution when there is still time to implement it before it could cause a real problem.
And especially since it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves, making it easier to do than reworking "useless" skills.

[Sigma-Astra]

Because they already said that button bloat was a reason for why they didn't add as many skills in SB than in HW. And that it's better to suggest a solution when there is still time to implement it before it could cause a real problem.
And especially since it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves, making it easier to do than reworking "useless" skills.

And guess what also causes jobs to feel like they have too many abilities already? Having useless skills that sit there collecting dust because you don't use them in place of other skills more favorable of using. The only jobs in desperate need of real estate is SCH, PLD, and potentially NIN.

Furthermore, if you think it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves and that it'll just perfectly mesh well, you're sadly mistaken. They'll still be reworking those skills, it'll still require time and testing to make sure they do what they're suppose to do either way. So, one method is no more easier than the other in that regard.

Consolidating one skill with another still qualifies as a change. It'll still require the devs to re-work an ability and make sure it functions accordingly either way.

[Reynhart]

And guess what also causes jobs to feel like they have too many abilities already?

I see you still confuse "too many abilities" with "too little slots". I thought I made the difference clear pages ago...

They'll still be reworking those skills, it'll still require time and testing to make sure they do what they're suppose to do either way. So, one method is no more easier than the other in that regard.

No, replacing Fire IV by Blizzard IV when you have Umbral Ice is not reworking Blizzard IV. Fusing combos on a single slot is not reworking the skill themselves. Replacing Blood Weapon by Blood Price when Grit is active is not reworking those skills.

[Sigma-Astra]

I see you still confuse "too many abilities" with "too little slots". I thought I made the difference clear pages ago...

No, replacing Fire IV by Blizzard IV when you have Umbral Ice is not reworking Blizzard IV. Fusing combos on a single slot is not reworking the skill themselves. Replacing Blood Weapon by Blood Price when Grit is active is not reworking those skills.

I'd love to know your definition of the word "change" because fusing two buttons on separate slots and onto a single slot is exactly the literal definition of the word "change". You are changing the way two things used to be into something else. When you're messing with the coding of two individual abilities that function under a third ability (Enochain) while they have to pay attention towards a timer like Umbral Ice and Astral Fire, you still have to re-work the coding and make sure the finalized ability, your single button, functions in the same way that the previous two buttons did.

Now, I don't know whether or not that would be an easy and quick fix, I'm not a game designer or coder, neither are you. But, what you want still requires them to tweak and re-work how certain abilities function with each other fluidly so we don't get an error where Blizzard IV isn't turning into Fire IV when it should be.

[Shurrikhan]

Furthermore, if you think it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves and that it'll just perfectly mesh well, you're sadly mistaken. They'll still be reworking those skills, it'll still require time and testing to make sure they do what they're suppose to do either way. So, one method is no more easier than the other in that regard.

You still don't seem to be understanding the premise here. That or you're grossly exaggerating.

A skill rework is something like what was done to Shake it Off. That takes time, because new mechanics are being generated. Had Shake it Off borrowed everything directly from Divine Veil, that already wouldn't be the case. Changing potencies, likewise, requires no development time in itself, but the repercussions of the change will take balance to plan around, which can then be significant depending on whether the change caused is enough to warrant the adjustment being given in the first place.

A consolidation simply attaches a conditional-ID, already a templated structure since 3.1 or 3.2. It requires no more time in its process adjusting the potency, but it has absolutely zero balance impact, and therefore requires no further testing of consequences.

Reworking an ability, be it by new mechanics or simply adjusting any one factor such as potency or range or cast time, takes objectively more time than consolidating two mutually exclusive skills.