Combo Action Button

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Bad design being common doesn't make it any less poor design. One should not need an MMO mouse for something designed for both M&KB and controller.

Except it isn't inherently bad design to have multiple buttons for combos. Some people may dislike it, however that isn't the same as it being flawed. You'll fine numerous controller and Keyboard player who have no issues whatsoever nor do they want anything changed. So, at best, it's a subjective argument.

Jeez, I guess that Naga with a 12 button remappable keypad under my thumb might have something to do with that oddity. Surely not.
Also, you are correct. I'm playing an MMO, not a piano.

Now riddle me this. After using Impulse Drive and enabling use of Disembowel, for what reason does Impulse Drive remain on my bars?
I will never consider using Impulse Drive twice in a row. That would be a straight dps loss, not to mention screw with upkeep of BOTD. There is literally zero purpose to Impulse Drive once I've cast it and moved up the chain. All it does is consume a hotkey and button space.

Potential solution for SAM: Instead of removing combo requirements, cause it to set the combo button to the final stage of each and apply the effects gained from using the entire combo in the chain.
Example, hit Meikyo Shisui. use Kasha(Gain Shifu buff) then use Gekko (Gaining Jinpu buff).
Might change the way its used, but that'd be fine, in my opinion. POint is that the skill can be modified/improved.

There is no purpose to skills used in a chain to remain on my bars with later steps active. That is bloat in its truest sense.
Mutually exclusive skills can easily be condensed down without affecting the number of keypresses.
If you like having 4 different binds for a single combo path with no branches (Like DRG), then feel free to keep the individual skills on your bars with separate keybinds. But I'd like an option to layer them into a single key.

1 button pressed multiple times as opposed to 4 buttons pressed once each.

Evidently, seeing I have a Logitech g600 with the same twelve remappable keybinds and have no such issues.

The reason is pure preference. Unfortunately, there is no scenario where SE will make it optional. Like I said, they aren't going to spend the resources to make it work for PvE only to subsequent prune and limit new abilities. They'll simply use it as their catch-all solution, thereby inevitably forcing people into it as new abilities are added. With that in mind, I prefer the current layout than having DRG reduced to essentially spamming 2221-1112, which is basically the equivalent of a Healer. They aren't going to add nearly enough oGCDs to compensate pressing less buttons. And if they did, well, it sort of defeats the purpose anyway since you're back to being a "pianist."

[Gemina]

DRG already have two 5-step combos, I don't see why other jobs couldn't.

Because the combos have already been established. Adding another step to a combo for the other jobs is the same as adding a 6th step to a DRG combo.

Plus, we're talking like this is already an issue when it isn't. There is no reason to fix something that isn't even broken.

[Gemina]

In addition, I would also like to point out the whole concept of a combo: The idea of a combo is to input a sequential set of commands where the proceeding command benefits from the previous. In early fighting game days, this resulted in the next attack being unblockable. So combined with a very strong secondary attack you create an optimal rotation. The same applies here, with potency increases being the reward.

In short, players need to be given the chance to screw up as much as the chance to be rewarded. Our combo system is probably of the last things that need adjusting in this game.

[Sylve]

Except it isn't inherently bad design
{snip}

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I'm still triggering a global between each separate press of the key. I'm still hitting my oGCDs while that GCD is active.
Once more: 1 button, 4 keypresses.
Literally pressing keys the exact same number of times, its just the same key multiple times rather than having 4 keys dedicated to literally 1 attack path that has zero branching.

Are you advocating that from now until the servers shut down, we get no new skills ever again? The fact that I have to use 34 separate keybinds already is obscene. Layering basic weaponskill combos into one button does not reduce button presses.
Either you have completely misunderstood the suggestion, or are trying to imply that you're somehow more skilled as a player because you used 4 separate keybinds to pull off a single combo string.
Then we have the separate issue of generally mutually exclusive skills requiring their own binds. Blood Price and Blood Weapon are a good example. They can never be used together, so why are they separated buttons? Warrior switching between Fel Cleave and Inner Beast based on Stance is the perfect solution for a variety of skills.

Then there are Controllers. How do you propose to add new abilities to the game if the controller hotbars can't support any new buttons?

The developers have 2 options on the table:
Condense weaponskill combos into a layered button and put mutually exclusive skills into a switching button like FC/IB.
OR
Delete skills to make way for new ones.

For Shadowbringers, maybe we can get away with exclusively getting new Traits to alter existing abilities, But what about after that?
If we assume 2 years per expansion, we'd be looking at 4 years since the last time we got any new abilities. We've seen what happens in other MMOs when the ability count exceeds viable hotbar space and its not pretty. Its better to work up a solution before we start having issues.
Just because its not a critical issue right now doesn't mean we should plant our heads in the sand and ignore it until the game breaks.

[Kleeya]

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I fully agree. When i see this kind of opener :

... why should i have to deal with such buttons bloat ? Just give me a one "raid opener button" to press 21 times in a row. I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

[Reynhart]

Because the combos have already been established.

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

And I still don't understand how you can say :

I wouldn't expect such complex combo strings to ever be implemented into the game.

while we already have one.

I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

You know you don't really make a good point for your "team" when you use such over exaggeration.

[Ilan]

I'm pretty sure such combos exist in PvP and the system works. If you have a combo 1->2->3 and another 1->2->4, then both combined combo action show the first WS. Then pressing either combined combo action button will update them both to show the second WS. Doing it again will update them both and one will show the third WS while the other will show the fourth one.

You mean the combos with skills where some got completly changed and others have been completly kicked out? Yeah still a hard pass from me. If we go that route we could also go that far that we put every dmg skill into a 1 button combo. Most classes are completly fine with 3 hotbars for skills which is not too many skills.

[Shurrikhan]

Except it isn't inherently bad design to have multiple buttons for combos. Some people may dislike it, however that isn't the same as it being flawed. You'll fine numerous controller and Keyboard player who have no issues whatsoever nor do they want anything changed. So, at best, it's a subjective argument.

You just reduced a complaint from someone clearly not among the "numerous controller and Keyboard player who have no issues whatsoever nor do they want anything changed" to a matter of "get better hardware, pleb". So let's not pretend there aren't people who are having issues with it. The sheer number of threads over the years from those with physical handicaps asking for advice on how comfortably bind all they need to play well onto their keyboard, the button-bloat complaint threads, and the four Combo Consolidation threads still in the New Posts pages beg to differ.

In addition, I would also like to point out the whole concept of a combo: The idea of a combo is to input a sequential set of commands where the proceeding command benefits from the previous. In early fighting game days, this resulted in the next attack being unblockable. So combined with a very strong secondary attack you create an optimal rotation. The same applies here, with potency increases being the reward.

In short, players need to be given the chance to screw up as much as the chance to be rewarded. Our combo system is probably of the last things that need adjusting in this game.

Except, the only failure our combos allow is finger slippage, which is irrelevant except to the newest players, those most easily panicked, or the physically handicapped. It is not a difficulty that the vast majority of us face except mid-hectic-mechanic when progging when over-stressed in Savage content. At most, it adds exclusion. Generally, it's a non-factor.

By your own definition, our "combos" are not combos. For a command to benefit from the previous, that following command must first actually exist outside of the given sequence. Otherwise you cannot have improvement. You can add something on to or in place of nothing, but you cannot improve on something that does not yet exist. And unless you're calling all combos skills in ubiquitous 100 potency and zero additional effects each as the actual skill, there's no improvement happening. Our "combos" are like a series of switches with electromagnetically sealed caps, each of which simply opens the next until you reach the final (read: actual) switch. You cannot viably hit C before B or B before A.

Compare that to a good fighting game. There, failure is not limited to manual mishaps; it includes more significant memory, it includes prediction, and it includes strategy. Each of in-range skills can see use in its own right and each do actually benefit others through the effects of the skill itself, rather than their merely unlocking each other in a decision-less sequence. In some, specific skills could only be accessed through specific sequences, but in every case every initially available action had course-viability and at every stage in every course you still had at least situationally viable choices. Those, therefore, are combos. XIV's are not. XIV's is a cycling system that reduces the amount of decisions one can make to every x GCDs. They are, for all intents and purposes, a way to dumb down gameplay.

Again, I'm not asking for my work to be done for me. I like having as many buttons as we do now, and merely want to see some QoL improvements (as per the ability to snapshot mod key states so that I can use my Shift/Alt/Ctrl-QWEASD without pausing movement I mentioned to Bourne earlier), but XIV's combo system as it stands now has virtually no merit to be lost regardless of whether it would come in conflict (as it inevitably will) with future additions to the game due to the bloat it causes, and makes even less sense than it has (non)merit. On principle, I'd much rather have as many buttons as there are decisions available. And in practice, I'd much rather see the availability of decision making increased rather than button count reduced.

[Kuroka]

I just wished stuff that needs a proc or is locked due stance (looks at DK) would be merged to one button, like on DK we never need powerslash and souleater at once, do we? Rdm's Impact is basically just a jolt III so why the botton bload for an basically dead skill? Or on BLM the leyline and between the line... or that super usefull freeze... we could free up some space without actually cutting much...

[Gemina]

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

How can you 'add' on to a combo if it wasn't previously established?

And I still don't understand how you can say :

while we already have one.

I was referring to complicating the combo strings even further. Not that they don't already exist.