Combo Action Button

[Sylve]

Except it isn't inherently bad design
{snip}

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I'm still triggering a global between each separate press of the key. I'm still hitting my oGCDs while that GCD is active.
Once more: 1 button, 4 keypresses.
Literally pressing keys the exact same number of times, its just the same key multiple times rather than having 4 keys dedicated to literally 1 attack path that has zero branching.

Are you advocating that from now until the servers shut down, we get no new skills ever again? The fact that I have to use 34 separate keybinds already is obscene. Layering basic weaponskill combos into one button does not reduce button presses.
Either you have completely misunderstood the suggestion, or are trying to imply that you're somehow more skilled as a player because you used 4 separate keybinds to pull off a single combo string.
Then we have the separate issue of generally mutually exclusive skills requiring their own binds. Blood Price and Blood Weapon are a good example. They can never be used together, so why are they separated buttons? Warrior switching between Fel Cleave and Inner Beast based on Stance is the perfect solution for a variety of skills.

Then there are Controllers. How do you propose to add new abilities to the game if the controller hotbars can't support any new buttons?

The developers have 2 options on the table:
Condense weaponskill combos into a layered button and put mutually exclusive skills into a switching button like FC/IB.
OR
Delete skills to make way for new ones.

For Shadowbringers, maybe we can get away with exclusively getting new Traits to alter existing abilities, But what about after that?
If we assume 2 years per expansion, we'd be looking at 4 years since the last time we got any new abilities. We've seen what happens in other MMOs when the ability count exceeds viable hotbar space and its not pretty. Its better to work up a solution before we start having issues.
Just because its not a critical issue right now doesn't mean we should plant our heads in the sand and ignore it until the game breaks.

[Kleeya]

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I fully agree. When i see this kind of opener :

... why should i have to deal with such buttons bloat ? Just give me a one "raid opener button" to press 21 times in a row. I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

[Reynhart]

Because the combos have already been established.

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

And I still don't understand how you can say :

I wouldn't expect such complex combo strings to ever be implemented into the game.

while we already have one.

I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

You know you don't really make a good point for your "team" when you use such over exaggeration.

[Gemina]

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

How can you 'add' on to a combo if it wasn't previously established?

And I still don't understand how you can say :

while we already have one.

I was referring to complicating the combo strings even further. Not that they don't already exist.

[Reynhart]

How can you 'add' on to a combo if it wasn't previously established?

Ok, let me get back to what you were saying :

After full combos are established, they don't get a whole lot of modifications with the exception of potency adjustments.

In ARR, True - Vorpal - Full was a full combo. It was modified outside of potency adjustment in HW by adding a 4th step. So, in HW True - Vorpal - Full - FaC/WT was a full combo.
It was modified outside of potency adjustment in SB by removing randomness and adding a 5th step.

I was referring to complicating the combo strings even further.

Your were replying to someone suggesting a 4th, 5th or 6th step to jobs that currently have three steps. Considering 4th and 5th step already exists for DRG, and that that job received an additionnal step at every expansion, saying there's no way these could be implemented ever is based on nothing.

[Dualgunner]

I fully agree. When i see this kind of opener :

... why should i have to deal with such buttons bloat ? Just give me a one "raid opener button" to press 21 times in a row. I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

I mean if it was just 1111111, there'd be no player community built around optimizing rotations because you'd have one single rotation (how do you optimize pushing X 21 times in a row? How do you adapt for different situations that can occur in a fight that mandate you shift your cooldowns and globals to better maximize your damage?)

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I'm still triggering a global between each separate press of the key. I'm still hitting my oGCDs while that GCD is active.
Once more: 1 button, 4 keypresses.
Literally pressing keys the exact same number of times, its just the same key multiple times rather than having 4 keys dedicated to literally 1 attack path that has zero branching.

You're reducing the amount of unique key presses from eight to two, in the case of DRG.

While neither is difficult, I find two buttons far more boring, especially given how frequently your combos are utilized. You will inevitably spam two buttons more than anything else. It may seem irrelevant to you, however I much prefer having different buttons. Since they aren't going to add eight new abilities, it will also reduce the amount of buttons on DRG overall—a job which already has plenty of available space. If I had any confidence this would simply be an option, maybe I'd be more open to it. SE doesn't tend to work that way though.

Are you advocating that from now until the servers shut down, we get no new skills ever again? The fact that I have to use 34 separate keybinds already is obscene. Layering basic weaponskill combos into one button does not reduce button presses.

No. Although, I do not actually want new abilities going into Shadowbringers, personally. Regardless, they can simply upgrade existing ones. There simply isn't a need to add new abilities, especially when things like Piercing Talon still exist.

Then we have the separate issue of generally mutually exclusive skills requiring their own binds. Blood Price and Blood Weapon are a good example. They can never be used together, so why are they separated buttons? Warrior switching between Fel Cleave and Inner Beast based on Stance is the perfect solution for a variety of skills.

These are not the same thing. Blood Price cannot even be pressed without Grit nor does there exist a combo sequence. Those shouldn't be separate buttons.

Then there are Controllers. How do you propose to add new abilities to the game if the controller hotbars can't support any new buttons?

A lot of controller players I know don't have any issues. In fact, my BFF plays BRD, AST and occasionally SCH—jobs far busier than DRG. Not only does she have plenty of space on a controller, she hates the idea of combo consolidation. To quote, "Just upgrade my DoTs and leave my fucking job alone."

The developers have 2 options on the table:
Condense weaponskill combos into a layered button and put mutually exclusive skills into a switching button like FC/IB.
OR
Delete skills to make way for new ones.

Or they upgrade existing abilities like I mentioned previously. Two additional options are to expand the combos so better interact with one another. Say Disembowel combo-ing into Full Thrust triggers a different effect. Another option is to bake new oGCDs behind existing ones with lengthily cooldowns. You don't need to add a new button entirely when Litany sits on a three minute CD and does precisely nothing until its up again. Any of these alternatives accomplishes the same thing without taking away any abilities. Granted, Piercing Talon can still die. I'm also not a fan of Dragon Sight but that's more because macros are awful in this game. Either way, they have plenty of options which don't involve reducing DRG to pressing two buttons more often than not.

You just reduced a complaint from someone clearly not among the "numerous controller and Keyboard player who have no issues whatsoever nor do they want anything changed" to a matter of "get better hardware, pleb". So let's not pretend there aren't people who are having issues with it. The sheer number of threads over the years from those with physical handicaps asking for advice on how comfortably bind all they need to play well onto their keyboard, the button-bloat complaint threads, and the four Combo Consolidation threads still in the New Posts pages beg to differ.

That number wouldn't even make up a full percent. You don't design a system around the possibility of someone physically handicapped having difficulties interacting with it because, pragmatically speaking, those types of players are exceedingly rare. Furthermore, you seem to be forgetting the opposition those threads have received every single time. Even on Reddit whenever this gets suggested, it gets shot down.

If there were such an outcry demanding combo consolidation, Yoshida wouldn't have made a point to specifically say they aren't doing it for PvE.

[Shurrikhan]

You're reducing the amount of unique key presses from eight to two, in the case of DRG.

And? The amount of key presses available in any given GCD is identical. You have 1-3 keys you can actually press at any given time. 8 GCDs out of 10 in ST, you have 1 choice. 1 per 10 GCDs has at most 3 choices. Another GCD per 10 has at most 2 choices. Now you have as many keys for the you have the maximum number of choices ever simultaneously available. It feels like you're fighting to get 10 one-dollar bills over a single ten-dollar bills when they can only even be spent in increments of ten dollars.

While neither is difficult, I find two buttons far more boring, especially given how frequently your combos are utilized. You will inevitably spam two buttons more than anything else. It may seem irrelevant to you, however I much prefer having different buttons. Since they aren't going to add eight new abilities, it will also reduce the amount of buttons on DRG overall—a job which already has plenty of available space.

And your preference... trumps all other preferences? Why does your preference exclude an option that generally neither adds nor reduces difficulty except insofar as fitting buttons into a comfortable keyboard space, which, by your own words, isn't a difficulty either?

If I had any confidence this would simply be an option, maybe I'd be more open to it. SE doesn't tend to work that way though.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. But then that still leaves the question: why does your preference outweigh that which it conflicts with? I could understand a poll released to all players having that kind of weight in its findings, but why is it essential that maintaining combos as they are right now trumps all improvements towards having as many buttons as choices, whether by decreasing button count or increasing choice count?

No. Although, I do not actually want new abilities going into Shadowbringers, personally. Regardless, they can simply upgrade existing ones. There simply isn't a need to add new abilities, especially when things like Piercing Talon still exist.

I, too, am not looking forward to new abilities while bloat is still rampant, but I think we -- and many others besides us -- will have very different ideas of where and how that bloat exists. Piercing Talon, though underwhelming, does not seem bloat to me so long as mitigateable melee downtime will exist, and I suspect mitigateable melee downtime will exist so long as variable percentage of melee downtime will exist -- for without that mitigation balance would shift more steeply towards either the minimization or maximization of the number of melee in a given party, constraining either encounter design freedoms or player compositional freedoms. What is the point of Lucid Dreaming so long as non-tanks do not partake in mob-gathering? What is the point in Diversion, so long as it will only ever be used as a lowest-priority burst CD among many, used on-CD thereafter? Even the devs have realized that at best Invigorate guts sustained physical AoE and merely punishes death in a randomized manner and have thus removed it. So why do we still have LD or Diversion or Protect? Piercing Talon at least cuts the average ppgcd loss of downtime by ~30%, helping to tighten melee-ranged balance. It sure as hell deserves improvements, but it has a good reason to be there. But we'd sooner scrap that than 2-minute CDs that can be performed at near optimal performance by an auto-clicker? Or over continuing to lock out access to 13 out of 14 weaponskills in the majority of GCDs? ...Your solution path seems a bit paradoxical here.

You make it sound as if there are fundamentally flawed ability concepts. Outside of those abilities that can be performed passively (e.g. by auto-clickers), I disagree. All others are examples of flawed execution. And, sadly, bit by bit, the devs are removing their ways to fix those flawed implementations short of uprooting them. Piercing Talon and other melee ranged skills can be improved upon. They can be combo-linked. They can be dynamic. They can see relative ppgcd percentile increases as per Yaten-E.Enpi. And yet we lose yet another way to bring up potency without enabling abuse by leaving melee with solely a irrelevant resource (MP) instead of a mostly irrelevant resource (TP).

And, just what are you expecting from upgraded abilities? Upgrades like Stone IV do one thing only: increase uptime dependency. They do not change gameplay except by reducing cleave potential by adjusting breakpoints, and only very, very slightly at that. Traits like Lance Mastery II merely reduce the number of available rotations by trading excess BotD generation from a direct 3.33 ppgcd bonus (with a potency loss overall compared to 2 FT combos and 1 CT combo per HT) to solely the viable option of the standard 5-step combo short of a sub-2.3 GCD. Adding skills does not necessarily add anything to gameplay, but accentuating internal imbalance via upgrades does not either -- it can often diminish gameplay. You get your shinier, or uglier, and/or more ridiculous animation for a skill you already used in quite nearly an identical capacity, but quite often even fewer options in gameplay to show for it. That's no inherent improvement either.

That number wouldn't even make up a full percent. You don't design a system around the possibility of someone physically handicapped having difficulties interacting with it because, pragmatically speaking, those types of players are exceedingly rare.

I'm not saying that we should, but what are the benefits here worth disproportionately affecting them -- or anyone -- over? I don't feel any difficulty or complexity granted by the "combo" systems we have now. It already feels like a braindead finger drift (to me, just as it clearly doesn't for you) . So, what exactly are we spending 4+ slots of bloat per combo-based melee (admittedly, still a lesser offender than Role Actions) to protect? Help me understand the appeal here.

If there were such an outcry demanding combo consolidation, Yoshida wouldn't have made a point to specifically say they aren't doing it for PvE.

Except we've already seen this before. When glamour first came out, we were informed that we should not expect it ever to be implemented for PvP. That this warning was given does not mean that an public opinion was voiced in one direction, was considered, and was promptly dismissed for its minority percentage, but simply that parameters were set. It was introduced for PvP. The logical question then becomes "will this hit PvE, too?" Even an entirely neutral ground boils down, then, to "we have no plans to do that." This isn't pandering to a backlash of something that hadn't yet even had a chance to lash back; it's settling expectations as a matter of course when introducing something with potential precedent. Every MMO does this, and unless early tester feedback (which XIV does not even have available to it) shows significantly positive reception, each tends to err towards caution and conservative PR. If anything, any public outcry would come after such an announcement. And, in a sense, it did. Though no one outside of veteran PvPers particularly expected or cared about the PvP consolidations, the questions immediately came up -- "why not?"
Obligatory Recap: I have no horse in this race. I don't particularly want consolidation, myself, but I would like to know just what it actually conserves beyond a very vague notion of preference irrelevant of wider contexts.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And? The amount of key presses available in any given GCD is identical. You have 1-3 keys you can actually press at any given time. 8 GCDs out of 10 in ST, you have 1 choice. 1 per 10 GCDs has at most 3 choices. Another GCD per 10 has at most 2 choices. Now you have as many keys for the you have the maximum number of choices ever simultaneously available. It feels like you're fighting to get 10 one-dollar bills over a single ten-dollar bills when they can only even be spent in increments of ten dollars.

The key presses themselves are the same, which keys are pressed aren't. You're conflating the two despite them not being the same thing.

And your preference... trumps all other preferences? Why does your preference exclude an option that generally neither adds nor reduces difficulty except insofar as fitting buttons into a comfortable keyboard space, which, by your own words, isn't a difficulty either?

If my preference is the majority, yes. Which seems to be the case hence why it isn't happening yet. Should that ever change in a future expansion, then my preference will no longer trump all. Nevertheless, it won't be introduced as an option because it wouldn't be optional. The moment SE moves to combo consolidation is the moment it becomes their solution going forward. People who prefer unique key presses will simply be inundated with new abilities because they have no reason to prune or upgrade anything. Hence why there is so much push back whenever this topic comes up. We all have our preference, whichever the devs feel works better is the one they'll side with. Currently, that is to keep combos separated.

I, too, am not looking forward to new abilities while bloat is still rampant, but I think we -- and many others besides us -- will have very different ideas of where and how that bloat exists. Piercing Talon, though underwhelming, does not seem bloat to me so long as mitigateable melee downtime will exist, and I suspect mitigateable melee downtime will exist so long as variable percentage of melee downtime will exist -- for without that mitigation balance would shift more steeply towards either the minimization or maximization of the number of melee in a given party, constraining either encounter design freedoms or player compositional freedoms. What is the point of Lucid Dreaming so long as non-tanks do not partake in mob-gathering? What is the point in Diversion, so long as it will only ever be used as a lowest-priority burst CD among many, used on-CD thereafter? Even the devs have realized that at best Invigorate guts sustained physical AoE and merely punishes death in a randomized manner and have thus removed it. So why do we still have LD or Diversion or Protect? Piercing Talon at least cuts the average ppgcd loss of downtime by ~30%, helping to tighten melee-ranged balance. It sure as hell deserves improvements, but it has a good reason to be there. But we'd sooner scrap that than 2-minute CDs that can be performed at near optimal performance by an auto-clicker? Or over continuing to lock out access to 13 out of 14 weaponskills in the majority of GCDs? ...Your solution path seems a bit paradoxical here.

You are once again conflating two different things into a singular argument; in this case, contradicting itself. Piercing Talon is button bloat because it's worthless in virtually every scenario imaginable. Alphascape has been especially cruel to melee DPS yet there is precisely one scenario where it can be used with any degree of consistency. And that is you're targeted second for the Fist mechanic in O11S. In any other scenario, you'll have enough time to maintain your combo. And therein lies the problem. If you break a combo with Piercing Talon you could have otherwise kept simply waiting around to re-engage the boss, it's a guaranteed damage loss. There are zero scenarios where breaking your combo will ever be a gain unless you were going to lose it anyway. This is why I consider Piercing Talon button bloat. The times in which you'll use it are so staggeringly low a good number of people don't even bother putting it on their hot bar. If they want to improve it, go right ahead—take it off the GCD. If they aren't, delete it because it serves no purpose otherwise.

None of this compares to Diversion or Lucid; the former being essential for tanks to maintain aggro outside tank stance, and the latter providing the same coverage whilst also restoring MP. Invigorate used to be more valuable when TP actually mattered. The changes to SB made it a non-issue outside of AoE scenarios. So like Piercing Talon, it's uses were minimal... though still less minimal. They've elected to remove it instead of reworking it. I want them to pick between the two for Piercing Talon.

And, just what are you expecting from upgraded abilities?

Honestly? Not much. If they go that route, it will likely be potency numbers and possible animation changes. I don't really want them to add a slew of new abilities or do anything significant. Better they focus on fixing the imbalances they couldn't seem to figure out throughout Stormblood. To be entirely honest, I want almost nothing changed to jobs like WAR, SCH, BRD and etc. so they can pay better attention to DRK, WHM and MCH all of whom have struggled for relevance.

Except we've already seen this before.

Except this isn't the same thing. You don't announce something like this seven months before your expansion launch only to say "jk, we changed our mind!" some three months later. The devs have already long begun working on whatever changes they plan to implement for 5.0 proper. And we know they never do huge overhauls mid-expansion. Therefore, expecting combo consolidation in 5.0 is wishful thinking at best for those who want such a change. Could it be re-visited come 6.0? Maybe. But it isn't happening for 5.x. Frankly, if I were to speculate, they had considered combo consolidation in PvE and used PvP as a testing ground. The heavily divisive response steered them away from it.