Combo Action Button

[Sylve]

It's called playing a MMO.

If you're running out of space, invest in a MMO mouse which is designed specifically for this. I scarcely even use my keyboard—virtually everything can be done on my mouse. Using modifiers comes with the genre. The last thing I ever want to see is the game being simplified to the point we don't even need modifiers anymore. I actually want to press buttons, not spam the same few endlessly. That one change you cite is precisely what I don't want. Not only does 2221-1112 feel incredibly dull, it forces you to watch your hot bars more closely because you can no longer rely entirely on muscle memory.

Making it an option doesn't work because it won't remain an option. The devs aren't going to spend the resources necessary to implement a combo consolidation system into PvE only to also still prune out or simply not add new abilities. They're just going to tell anyone who dislike their combos on two buttons to "deal with it." So in reality, the only one who benefits is you. Not me. Hence why I want nothing to do with combo consolation.

On a separate note. I have to question your setup. Why would you ever put your main combo on 890E? Even without a dedicated MMO mouse, you should neither need to do that nor want to since three of those keys are in Narnia.

Jeez, I guess that Naga with a 12 button remappable keypad under my thumb might have something to do with that oddity. Surely not.
Also, you are correct. I'm playing an MMO, not a piano.

Now riddle me this. After using Impulse Drive and enabling use of Disembowel, for what reason does Impulse Drive remain on my bars?
I will never consider using Impulse Drive twice in a row. That would be a straight dps loss, not to mention screw with upkeep of BOTD. There is literally zero purpose to Impulse Drive once I've cast it and moved up the chain. All it does is consume a hotkey and button space.

Potential solution for SAM: Instead of removing combo requirements, cause it to set the combo button to the final stage of each and apply the effects gained from using the entire combo in the chain.
Example, hit Meikyo Shisui. use Kasha(Gain Shifu buff) then use Gekko (Gaining Jinpu buff).
Might change the way its used, but that'd be fine, in my opinion. POint is that the skill can be modified/improved.

There is no purpose to skills used in a chain to remain on my bars with later steps active. That is bloat in its truest sense.
Mutually exclusive skills can easily be condensed down without affecting the number of keypresses.
If you like having 4 different binds for a single combo path with no branches (Like DRG), then feel free to keep the individual skills on your bars with separate keybinds. But I'd like an option to layer them into a single key.

1 button pressed multiple times as opposed to 4 buttons pressed once each.

[Rongway]

Now riddle me this. After using Impulse Drive and enabling use of Disembowel, for what reason does Impulse Drive remain on my bars?
I will never consider using Impulse Drive twice in a row. That would be a straight dps loss, not to mention screw with upkeep of BOTD. There is literally zero purpose to Impulse Drive once I've cast it and moved up the chain. All it does is consume a hotkey and button space.

But the point is you can make the wrong decision and use it twice in a row, and indeed some people do--especially when they're still learning a new job.

This is not like conditional or mutually exclusive abilities, which you are literally unable to use under the wrong conditions.

Example: You cannot use Between the Lines unless Ley Lines is active. You cannot use Ley Lines while Between the Lines is usable, because Between the Lines is only usable when Ley Lines is already active. Therefore these two actions should be the same button. This is not like advancing a combo, where it's possible to abort or reset the combo for whatever (usually bad) reason.

[Sylve]

But the point is you can make the wrong decision and use it twice in a row, and indeed some people do--especially when they're still learning a new job.

This is not like conditional or mutually exclusive abilities, which you are literally unable to use under the wrong conditions.

Example: You cannot use Between the Lines unless Ley Lines is active. You cannot use Ley Lines while Between the Lines is usable, because Between the Lines is only usable when Ley Lines is already active. Therefore these two actions should be the same button. This is not like advancing a combo, where it's possible to abort or reset the combo for whatever (usually bad) reason.

So your argument against the idea is … To keep it unchanged because new people make mistakes? There are plenty of mistakes that can be made naturally outside of the basic combo.

[Rongway]

So your argument against the idea is

I'm saying you can't compare combos to conditional or mutually exclusive abilities. They're not in the same boat. Having separate hotbar slots for conditional or mutually exclusive abilities is inarguably a waste, because there's no situation in which you can use the two at the same time. Having separate hotbar slots for weaponskills in a skillchain is fine, as it lets you make the choice to use them out of order, whether that is the wrong choice (in most cases) or the right one (typically MCH, SAM, MNK mechanics).

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Bad design being common doesn't make it any less poor design. One should not need an MMO mouse for something designed for both M&KB and controller.

Except it isn't inherently bad design to have multiple buttons for combos. Some people may dislike it, however that isn't the same as it being flawed. You'll fine numerous controller and Keyboard player who have no issues whatsoever nor do they want anything changed. So, at best, it's a subjective argument.

Jeez, I guess that Naga with a 12 button remappable keypad under my thumb might have something to do with that oddity. Surely not.
Also, you are correct. I'm playing an MMO, not a piano.

Now riddle me this. After using Impulse Drive and enabling use of Disembowel, for what reason does Impulse Drive remain on my bars?
I will never consider using Impulse Drive twice in a row. That would be a straight dps loss, not to mention screw with upkeep of BOTD. There is literally zero purpose to Impulse Drive once I've cast it and moved up the chain. All it does is consume a hotkey and button space.

Potential solution for SAM: Instead of removing combo requirements, cause it to set the combo button to the final stage of each and apply the effects gained from using the entire combo in the chain.
Example, hit Meikyo Shisui. use Kasha(Gain Shifu buff) then use Gekko (Gaining Jinpu buff).
Might change the way its used, but that'd be fine, in my opinion. POint is that the skill can be modified/improved.

There is no purpose to skills used in a chain to remain on my bars with later steps active. That is bloat in its truest sense.
Mutually exclusive skills can easily be condensed down without affecting the number of keypresses.
If you like having 4 different binds for a single combo path with no branches (Like DRG), then feel free to keep the individual skills on your bars with separate keybinds. But I'd like an option to layer them into a single key.

1 button pressed multiple times as opposed to 4 buttons pressed once each.

Evidently, seeing I have a Logitech g600 with the same twelve remappable keybinds and have no such issues.

The reason is pure preference. Unfortunately, there is no scenario where SE will make it optional. Like I said, they aren't going to spend the resources to make it work for PvE only to subsequent prune and limit new abilities. They'll simply use it as their catch-all solution, thereby inevitably forcing people into it as new abilities are added. With that in mind, I prefer the current layout than having DRG reduced to essentially spamming 2221-1112, which is basically the equivalent of a Healer. They aren't going to add nearly enough oGCDs to compensate pressing less buttons. And if they did, well, it sort of defeats the purpose anyway since you're back to being a "pianist."

[Sylve]

Except it isn't inherently bad design
{snip}

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I'm still triggering a global between each separate press of the key. I'm still hitting my oGCDs while that GCD is active.
Once more: 1 button, 4 keypresses.
Literally pressing keys the exact same number of times, its just the same key multiple times rather than having 4 keys dedicated to literally 1 attack path that has zero branching.

Are you advocating that from now until the servers shut down, we get no new skills ever again? The fact that I have to use 34 separate keybinds already is obscene. Layering basic weaponskill combos into one button does not reduce button presses.
Either you have completely misunderstood the suggestion, or are trying to imply that you're somehow more skilled as a player because you used 4 separate keybinds to pull off a single combo string.
Then we have the separate issue of generally mutually exclusive skills requiring their own binds. Blood Price and Blood Weapon are a good example. They can never be used together, so why are they separated buttons? Warrior switching between Fel Cleave and Inner Beast based on Stance is the perfect solution for a variety of skills.

Then there are Controllers. How do you propose to add new abilities to the game if the controller hotbars can't support any new buttons?

The developers have 2 options on the table:
Condense weaponskill combos into a layered button and put mutually exclusive skills into a switching button like FC/IB.
OR
Delete skills to make way for new ones.

For Shadowbringers, maybe we can get away with exclusively getting new Traits to alter existing abilities, But what about after that?
If we assume 2 years per expansion, we'd be looking at 4 years since the last time we got any new abilities. We've seen what happens in other MMOs when the ability count exceeds viable hotbar space and its not pretty. Its better to work up a solution before we start having issues.
Just because its not a critical issue right now doesn't mean we should plant our heads in the sand and ignore it until the game breaks.

[Kleeya]

And please explain how pressing 2 2 2 1 is LESS keypressing than 1 2 3 4?

I fully agree. When i see this kind of opener :

... why should i have to deal with such buttons bloat ? Just give me a one "raid opener button" to press 21 times in a row. I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

[Reynhart]

Because the combos have already been established.

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

And I still don't understand how you can say :

I wouldn't expect such complex combo strings to ever be implemented into the game.

while we already have one.

I dont see the difference between pressing 1 2 3 4 5 4 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 14 2 rather than 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1.

You know you don't really make a good point for your "team" when you use such over exaggeration.

[Gemina]

The 4th and 5th step were added by the two expansions, there was nothing "established".

How can you 'add' on to a combo if it wasn't previously established?

And I still don't understand how you can say :

while we already have one.

I was referring to complicating the combo strings even further. Not that they don't already exist.

[Reynhart]

How can you 'add' on to a combo if it wasn't previously established?

Ok, let me get back to what you were saying :

After full combos are established, they don't get a whole lot of modifications with the exception of potency adjustments.

In ARR, True - Vorpal - Full was a full combo. It was modified outside of potency adjustment in HW by adding a 4th step. So, in HW True - Vorpal - Full - FaC/WT was a full combo.
It was modified outside of potency adjustment in SB by removing randomness and adding a 5th step.

I was referring to complicating the combo strings even further.

Your were replying to someone suggesting a 4th, 5th or 6th step to jobs that currently have three steps. Considering 4th and 5th step already exists for DRG, and that that job received an additionnal step at every expansion, saying there's no way these could be implemented ever is based on nothing.