Combo Action Button

[Sigma-Astra]

Maybe an actually functional version of that Freeze spell you keep insulting people for possibly having on their bars?

Well, it's not so much of an insult as it's just common sense to not put something on your hotbar that fundamentally has no use or reason to be there in the first place. But, thanks for regurgitating again what I already said in the following paragraphs of my previous response, so I'm not entirely sure why your passive aggressive snippet above was even necessary. Any person who actually mains BLM competitively or smart would not have it on their bar, the same can be said for people who main Monk and their grievances with the ability One Ilm Punch.

So, we should fix spells the spells that currently make space an non-issue (because, to take your advice, just don't bind them), but not also make space for them after doing so, despite it costing absolutely nothing to make that space?

You can have both, you realize? You can have functional abilities and a non-redundant button-space. They are not mutually exclusive.

We should fix the spells that we have problems with first, then after doing so, we can re-evaluate if we still need the additional space since BLM has no button bloat at the moment to speak of like Seraphor had said earlier.

The higher number of skills we might receive in Shadowbringers or the following expansion if button bloat is less of an issue...

And addressing both of your complaints in one shot, we don't know what or how many skills we may be getting, if they even feel like adding new abilities with the next expansion, so why are we jumping the gun and getting paranoid about something that's still a year or so away. I can see focusing on the jobs that absolutely might need some skill pruning now, but we don't really need to waste additional time on jobs that haven't reached that threshold yet either.

Reduce the bloat on jobs that may already have it, and then focus on re-working skills that are useless now, so they're not still useless when the next expansion rolls around and we're left at square one still.

Just because some jobs may need it, doesn't mean we need to suddenly enforce the policy on all jobs at once.

[Reynhart]

And addressing both of your complaints in one shot, we don't know what or how many skills we may be getting, if they even feel like adding new abilities with the next expansion, so why are we jumping the gun and getting paranoid about something that's still a year or so away.

Because they already said that button bloat was a reason for why they didn't add as many skills in SB than in HW. And that it's better to suggest a solution when there is still time to implement it before it could cause a real problem.
And especially since it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves, making it easier to do than reworking "useless" skills.

[Sigma-Astra]

Because they already said that button bloat was a reason for why they didn't add as many skills in SB than in HW. And that it's better to suggest a solution when there is still time to implement it before it could cause a real problem.
And especially since it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves, making it easier to do than reworking "useless" skills.

And guess what also causes jobs to feel like they have too many abilities already? Having useless skills that sit there collecting dust because you don't use them in place of other skills more favorable of using. The only jobs in desperate need of real estate is SCH, PLD, and potentially NIN.

Furthermore, if you think it doesn't require any change in the skills themselves and that it'll just perfectly mesh well, you're sadly mistaken. They'll still be reworking those skills, it'll still require time and testing to make sure they do what they're suppose to do either way. So, one method is no more easier than the other in that regard.

Consolidating one skill with another still qualifies as a change. It'll still require the devs to re-work an ability and make sure it functions accordingly either way.

[Reynhart]

What real estate are we reducing it for though? What other skill or ability are you going to put into that empty space?

The higher number of skills we might receive in Shadowbringers or the following expansion if button bloat is less of an issue...

[Sandpark]

What real estate are we reducing it for though? What other skill or ability are you going to put into that empty space? You're not using several abilities already. Instead of consolidating abilities that have worked fine on their own, we should be focusing on lackluster abilities that do absolutely nothing yet they're there like Freeze.

As for finger gymnastics, your finger isn't really jumping around too much if you've been smart and placed Fire IV and Blizzard IV on the first hotbar and practically almost next to each other. If you put Blizzard IV on a second hotbar, I'd have to wonder if you enjoy making your life difficult for no real purpose.

Any new skills that get added until now and XIV shutdown.

Any movement required besides up and down is jumping around regardless of how smart you place skills.
Economy of motion.
If your finger has to travel 1 inch to the right, that is slower than staying still, 2 inches slower, 3 inches slower.

Why is WASD the defacto standard and not WLFV?
Economy of motion.
A standard keyboard could have 40 numbers keys from left to right.
Why are there only 10 number keys and a plus minus?
Economy of motion.
Why do single keyboard keys have multiple functions versus one each?
Economy of motion.

A forward thinking developer sees things ahead of time and plans accordingly rather than just waiting until something breaks and then tries to rush and get it fixed. Just because bloat is no issue now for some, does not mean it never will.

[Sigma-Astra]

Any new skills that get added until now and XIV shutdown.

Any movement required besides up and down is jumping around regardless of how smart you place skills.
Economy of motion.
If your finger has to travel 1 inch to the right, that is slower than staying still, 2 inches slower, 3 inches slower.

Why is WASD the defacto standard and not WLFV?
Economy of motion.
A standard keyboard could have 40 numbers keys from left to right.
Why are there only 10 number keys and a plus minus?
Economy of motion.
Why do single keyboard keys have multiple functions versus one each?
Economy of motion.

A forward thinking developer sees things ahead of time and plans accordingly rather than just waiting until something breaks and then tries to rush and get it fixed. Just because bloat is no issue now for some, does not mean it never will.

....Why are we using economy of motion as an excuse for people who just can't map out their hotbars on certain classes properly...and I say certain classes because not all classes suffer like PLD, DRG, and NIN do.

The principles of motion economy are a set of rules and suggestions to improve the manual work in manufacturing and reduce fatigue and unnecessary movements by the worker, which can lead to the reduction of work related trauma. Last I checked, XIV isn't a manufacturing job and if you find playing the game that tedious and fatigue inducing on your fingers and body while you're sitting your butt in a comfy chair, then perhaps you should stop playing the game for long periods of time without taking breaks.

This is a lot of fluffy words that don't go anywhere because economy of motion has nothing to do with someone sitting at home, on their butt, and playing a video game. That is the complete opposite of maximizing a worker's movement and motion performance at their labor intensive job so they can work better, faster, and longer while avoiding fatigue quicker. Economy of motion is more relevant towards martial artists, guitar players, etc....things that actually require you to adjust your body movements accordingly, and playing an MMO is not one of them.

If you're treating XIV like a job or chore, instead of a hobby....then, I think you have other problems with the game entirely than just them not implementing PvP consolidation into PvE.

[Deceptus]

....Why are we using economy of motion as an excuse for people who just can't map out their hotbars on certain classes properly...and I say certain classes because not all classes suffer like PLD, DRG, and NIN do.

People with disabilities or limited finger motion exist?

Microsoft figured this out and made a special controller for them.

FFXIV has the system in place in PvP to do it, they just don't want to pull the trigger.

[Sigma-Astra]

People with disabilities or limited finger motion exist?

Microsoft figured this out and made a special controller for them.

FFXIV has the system in place in PvP to do it, they just don't want to pull the trigger.

Yes, and there are still probably special controllers that people with disabilities and limited hand motion can use to reduce that with XIV as well, I know not everyone uses the standard Sony controllers to play. It might even be better to petition SE/Sony to develop a special controller with those people in mind. That being said, that doesn't mean we need to enforce an idea that not everyone wants or needs. I mean, let the people with disabilities speak for themselves if this was an issue, they don't need you to speak for them.

My fiance is disabled as well and I've never heard of him complaining about his hotbars management, controller, or keyboard beforehand. The only complaint I get is that he won't touch BRD because it's a lot of procs to watch out for and manage that could potentially kill your DPS, he's just never had good things to say about BRD. Sorry BRD mains!

They even specified why PvP works so well in the way that it does in a past interview. It's because PvP isn't quite as demanding or engaging as PvE is and therefore doesn't require the player to use their entire toolkit or maximize their own rotations. Everyone is on a leveled playing ground in terms of skill within PvP, the same cannot be said for the PvE environment where the skill gaps between the different grouping of players is larger.

[Shurrikhan]

FFXIV has the system in place in PvP to do it, they just don't want to pull the trigger.

That system is not in place for PvE. The code is, but the skills are not. Only a few jobs are readily adaptable to its use.

What would work, on the other hand, is just removing the intentionally broken code on macros, allowing players to make their own versions of these series. Or, create a better macro-creator altogether to support such QoL functions.

Even then I'd probably use them only on DRG, as I like having access to BB, RoH, and PS on their own for gathering for pulls, Perfect Balance wrecks this for Monk unless I sacrifice Shift- and Alt- variants of my 1-3 weaponskill keys and XIV allows mod-keying inside macros themselves, and there are times I'd want to hold RA or use CB before SB, etc. That kind of system just isn't well fit to what we have now. A system like that works best with a geometric series, with the same number of options in each GCD. Instead we get 1 choice, 1-2 choices, 2-3 choices.

Consolidation can eventually work and work well, but to be applied universally or systematically it would require a complete rework of our combo lines and the whole idea of what makes a combo. And that's not on the table right now.

[Sandpark]

....Why are we using economy of motion as an excuse for people who just can't map out their hotbars on certain classes properly...and I say certain classes because not all classes suffer like PLD, DRG, and NIN do.

The principles of motion economy are a set of rules and suggestions to improve the manual work in manufacturing and reduce fatigue and unnecessary movements by the worker, which can lead to the reduction of work related trauma. Last I checked, XIV isn't a manufacturing job and if you find playing the game that tedious and fatigue inducing on your fingers and body while you're sitting your butt in a comfy chair, then perhaps you should stop playing the game for long periods of time without taking breaks.

This is a lot of fluffy words that don't go anywhere because economy of motion has nothing to do with someone sitting at home, on their butt, and playing a video game. That is the complete opposite of maximizing a worker's movement and motion performance at their labor intensive job so they can work better, faster, and longer while avoiding fatigue quicker. Economy of motion is more relevant towards martial artists, guitar players, etc....things that actually require you to adjust your body movements accordingly, and playing an MMO is not one of them.

If you're treating XIV like a job or chore, instead of a hobby....then, I think you have other problems with the game entirely than just them not implementing PvP consolidation into PvE.

Wrong ECM applies to music and other things as well. Virtuoso musicians use it play really fast and efficiently moving across fret boards. You are treating it like a job because people can't have nice things due to some wanting things to be more arduous than they need to be.

A finger, wrist, and hand is a part of the body unless you are an alien last time I checked. People who treat it like a job are the types that go on about how easy the game is and people need to get good because their DPS is not machine like. Hobby, job, life goal, who cares what it is classified as? If something can make something more enjoyable for someone else, why do you deny them that or argue against it?

All things are a hobby outside your profession for real life money. If gaming is just a hobby for you, why do you care if they add consolidation or not? If gaming is just a hobby for you, why are you pushing against a quality of life option for other players?

/shaking my head