Why bother?

[Dualgunner]

There are two kinds of ignoring mechanics. There's the idiotic kind, where the ignoring of mechanics does not benefit even the DD's DPS, and then...

There is planned ignoring of mechanics. One example that comes to mind is Head-On in Sigmascape V1.0(Savage): the point of the mechanic is to disengage from the boss and run to the back of the arena to survive the incoming damage of Doom Train colliding with the arena. Through coordinated mitigation and planning, melee DD could stand up near the front of the arena, survive the Head-On, maintain uptime and get healed up in the immediate aftermath. It's ignoring a mechanic's intended interaction with a party entirely, but it gets DD that additional damage and sacrifices almost no damage from a healer.

You ask "Why bother with mechanics?" It's because the mechanics create a dance for the players to move along with. It also creates gambits of risk versus reward in the fight. Do we have the Paladin take Omega's tether in Alphascape V3.0(Savage) and run to the corner to Hallowed during Pantokrator 2? It's the safer option for sure. But we can also have the bard take it, and circle the outside of the arena, allowing the PLD to maintain uptime--it's riskier, but it's rewarding too.

This constant game of risk vs reward is what makes the game fun. But like everywhere in life, there are people who take idiotic risks for no reward.

As a healer if Im having to heal DPS standing in aoes just so they can squeeze out that extra 1% I'm not able to dps half as much and I'm pretty sure 50% of my DPS is greater then their net gain of 1%.

You shouldn't be losing 50% of your DPS to heal a DD who got hit by an AOE. Off-Global healing is something all three healers have that is more than enough for non-raid tier content.

[Vidu]

There is planned ignoring of mechanics. One example that comes to mind is Head-On in Sigmascape V1.0(Savage): the point of the mechanic is to disengage from the boss and run to the back of the arena to survive the incoming damage of Doom Train colliding with the arena. Through coordinated mitigation and planning, melee DD could stand up near the front of the arena, survive the Head-On, maintain uptime and get healed up in the immediate aftermath. It's ignoring a mechanic's intended interaction with a party entirely, but it gets DD that additional damage and sacrifices almost no damage from a healer.

I wouldnt call that "Ignoring of a mechanic" but rather "finding a more creative way to deal with the mechanic in question" - something that can be actually more difficult or risky as dealing with the mechanic the way it was intended. If I remember correctly our warrior would sometimes use holmgang for Head-On - it was a legit way to prevent being killed by the knockback, so the mechanic was dealt with, just not in the most common way.
Another example would be Byakko EX and the second tiger - using the tank lb3 for that is still dealing with the mechanic. (And for me as tank this is more difficult than having everyone kill the tiger, because I need to hit the LB in the right moment - dont get me wrong, its not actually difficult, but if I dream off or forget about it, the whole group is dead...)

Personally I believe that things like that are what makes the fights at least a little bit intresting: The question of wether or not you have to take the safe way to handle a mechanic (most of the time at the cost of dps) or if you can find a different way, that grants you more uptime but is riskier and probably more challenging.

And we still need mechanics in dungeons, because thats where they're introduced most of the time before they get mixed up later - the idea is though that everyone can learn general mechanics (turn away, theters, stack markers, spread markers, killing adds, knock backs, dodging...) in an easy envoriment, so that you already know how to handle them in general when you see them return in a more complexe fight.

You also forget that a higher ilvl renders certain mechanics basically... useless - no need to dodge if the AoE wont kill me or give me a debuff.

And on the one hand I agree with you: People need more of a challenge - not a savage-like challenge, but rather mechanics in dungeons that actually matter.
On the other hand we do have more of those mechanics in current content... on top off: If I run a dungeon for the 50th time, I dont want to wipe because the new french tank and the returning german healer dont speak a word of english and arent willing and able to communicate with the party... when it would be needed to clear the dungeon.
I remember Cutters Cry being HARD and my first group wiping at the first boss for 45 minutes, before we gave up. Wasnt fun. Dont wanna see that again.

Personally, I'm fine with seeing mechanics intruced in dungeons, turning them into a trainings ground for singled out mechanics - and then see them actually really matter in trials, EX-trials and raids.

[AdrenKael]

You also forget that a higher ilvl renders certain mechanics basically... useless - no need to dodge if the AoE wont kill me or give me a debuff.

Let me toss a little math your way. (numbers aren't representative of any particular fight but the general idea is sound)

Healer: 282 DPS with healing tank and no one is standing in stupid
Healer: 100 DPS with healing tank and dps who refuse to move out of ANY aoe
DPS :465 dps while standing in aoes
DPS: 463 dps while moving out of aoes

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

[Dualgunner]

Let me toss a little math your way. (numbers aren't representative of any particular fight but the general idea is sound)

Healer: 282 DPS with healing tank and no one is standing in stupid
Healer: 100 DPS with healing tank and dps who refuse to move out of ANY aoe
DPS :465 dps while standing in aoes
DPS: 463 dps while moving out of aoes

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

The general idea is not sound, and I challenge your numbers. Where'd you get them from? What all are DPS standing in that you have to heal so much you lose almost 66% of your dps, because there have to be a *lot* for them to take up more than 66% of your GCD usage.

[AdrenKael]

The general idea is not sound, and I challenge your numbers. Where'd you get them from? What all are DPS standing in that you have to heal so much you lose almost 66% of your dps, because there have to be a *lot* for them to take up more than 66% of your GCD usage.

The idea IS sound because we're not talking about normal run of the mill stand in one or two aoes. I expect that we're talking about those late night 2 am duty finder runs where the DPS stand in EVERY aoe. If you want to know where the numbers are from they aren't representative of anything in particular but I'll give you a specific example.

In Nidhog in the aery the DPS standing in the flame I did 85% less dps and we failed because I was OOM and the tank died from me healing and rezing the DPS. When we came back and the DPS got their heads of their posterior regions and actually moved DPS shot up the tank stayed at 85% and we completed it in LESS time the it took us to fail the first time.

So please challenge away the fact that DPS stand in stupid slows us down to a crawl. But please let the DPS feel free to tout that standing in stupid makes their DPS go WAY up as they're're tanking the floor.

[Dualgunner]

The idea IS sound because we're not talking about normal run of the mill stand in one or two aoes. I expect that we're talking about those late night 2 am duty finder runs where the DPS stand in EVERY aoe. If you want to know where the numbers are from they aren't representative of anything in particular but I'll give you a specific example.

Saying "the idea IS sound" does not automatically make the idea sound. The fact you just spat out random numbers is a large hamper to your argument and it's hurt your credibility by showing just how hyperbolic you're being.

EDIT: Also, gonna keep that snippet: we're not talking about normal run of the mill duty finder. We're talking about fringe minority cases in which case...

Why bother asking SE "Why bother with mechanics when a fringe minority will ignore all of them?"

In Nidhog in the aery the DPS standing in the flame I did 85% less dps and we failed because I was OOM and the tank died from me healing and rezing the DPS. When we came back and the DPS got their heads of their posterior regions and actually moved DPS shot up the tank stayed at 85% and we completed it in LESS time the it took us to fail the first time.

Those are stupid DDs. They're not "getting more DPS" by standing in any of his fires; if we're talking the cleave? Melee are losing DPS by not getting positionals. The levitating flame orb? Insta wipe, they're idiots if they ignore it. The Ultimate? They're not getting any extra DPS by not standing in the bubble because there is no target to hit. If they're telling you that they're being stupid for DPS, then they're being extra stupid because they're getting no extra DPS in Nidhogg.

All in all? Terrible example. I, again, cite Sigmascape V1.0 (Savage) Head-On strat as being a good example of a time standing in stupid is a buff. Vidu also pointed out that most dungeons we're in, we're so overgeared for that standing in an AoE has no effect on the healer's end, so if it grants the DPS more uptime, then they should do it.

So please challenge away the fact that DPS stand in stupid slows us down to a crawl. But please let the DPS feel free to tout that standing in stupid makes their DPS go WAY up as they're're tanking the floor.

You didn't have to ask, since I already challenged your numbers. Your Nidhogg is a bad example because there is no extra damage to be gained for taking mechanical risks in that fight. Standing in cleaves gives no extra damage. Standing in one-shot fire when there's no target gives no extra damage. Not killing the levitating ball gives no extra damage. They weren't being idiots for extra damage, they were just being idiots.

[AdrenKael]

You didn't have to ask, since I already challenged your numbers. Your Nidhogg is a bad example because there is no extra damage to be gained for taking mechanical risks in that fight.

You didn't challenge just the numbers you challenged the idea without presenting any evidence of your own. Yes I was being hyperbolic with the numbers just to give you a general idea of what I was referring to thus the whole "not representative of anything in particular" statement. Just saying I doubt something without any shred of evidence to back up your own claim or any example of your own isn't valid. You cant use "within the context of my argument" excuse when you're arguing a completely different point. Yes, there are mechanics you can skip or cheese and there are times when a DPS has no choice but to stand in an AOE (limit break for example) but your original statement of "You shouldn't be losing 50% of your DPS to heal a DD who got hit by an AOE. Off-Global healing is something all three healers have that is more than enough for non-raid tier content" is not an example of what I was discussing and therefore it doesn't really apply. The example of Nidhog is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

You say it's a fringe minority but that's not been my experience. I run anywhere between 10 to 20 dungeons a day between three toons. I run the gambit from sastasha to singularity. In my experience over half of the DPS stand in WAY too many AOEs. I can understand casters but running into a ninja or a dragoon or a monk who runs in front of a boss and gets cleaved and I have to spend near 1/5th of my MP raising him just for him to do it again in the same fight is a common occurrence in the DF. Common enough to where I cringe when I see a ninja in the group.

I understand in some instances you would prefer to heal a dps and get the fight over with faster but my argument isn't about ONE dps standing in ONE aoe. It's not really even about idiots being idiots and yes, I realize you can't fix stupid but the "Why bother?" is rhetorical. It wouldn't be much fun if you stood in one place and pressed 1,2,3 and you got a golden trophy for participation. The post is not about calling someone out for being a moron or about numbers. It's not about telling SE to forgo mechanics. My post is about what is causing this and how to fix it. I honestly think that boredom is setting in when the mechanics are unchanging and become "cheeseable" due to high item level sync. This is teaching the new players bad habits and this leads to instances like the Aery run I mentioned.

All too often during my DF time the runs are horrible and cringe worthy. Maybe it's me just expecting too much out of a pug or maybe I've just had two months of "bad luck", but since I came back to the game I've started giving out comms to DPS for NOT standing in stupid and those have been few and far between.

[Rongway]

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

[AdrenKael]

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

Responsible DPS will move out of AOEs as well we're not talking about responsible DPS here, we're talking about the ones who run around during the fight like a chicken without a head and stand in stupid every opportunity they get.

[miraidensetsu]

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

Yea, true. But healing oGCD have cooldowns. If all of them is on CD, the healer must start spending GCDs on keeping the party alive.

The numbers are really way, way off, but the logic behind it sounds OK if we have some red-circle swimmer DPS. Every healer had to heal those type of people at least once. But for normal runs with DPS's who had an brain, the oGCD healing should be enough to take care of a single or a couple of failed mechanics.

Yes, there are some specific fights that ignoring some specific mechanic really gives a real DPS gain. But, in general, ignore mechanics to "get more DPS" is just an excuse for being bad.