Why bother?

[Vidu]

There is planned ignoring of mechanics. One example that comes to mind is Head-On in Sigmascape V1.0(Savage): the point of the mechanic is to disengage from the boss and run to the back of the arena to survive the incoming damage of Doom Train colliding with the arena. Through coordinated mitigation and planning, melee DD could stand up near the front of the arena, survive the Head-On, maintain uptime and get healed up in the immediate aftermath. It's ignoring a mechanic's intended interaction with a party entirely, but it gets DD that additional damage and sacrifices almost no damage from a healer.

I wouldnt call that "Ignoring of a mechanic" but rather "finding a more creative way to deal with the mechanic in question" - something that can be actually more difficult or risky as dealing with the mechanic the way it was intended. If I remember correctly our warrior would sometimes use holmgang for Head-On - it was a legit way to prevent being killed by the knockback, so the mechanic was dealt with, just not in the most common way.
Another example would be Byakko EX and the second tiger - using the tank lb3 for that is still dealing with the mechanic. (And for me as tank this is more difficult than having everyone kill the tiger, because I need to hit the LB in the right moment - dont get me wrong, its not actually difficult, but if I dream off or forget about it, the whole group is dead...)

Personally I believe that things like that are what makes the fights at least a little bit intresting: The question of wether or not you have to take the safe way to handle a mechanic (most of the time at the cost of dps) or if you can find a different way, that grants you more uptime but is riskier and probably more challenging.

And we still need mechanics in dungeons, because thats where they're introduced most of the time before they get mixed up later - the idea is though that everyone can learn general mechanics (turn away, theters, stack markers, spread markers, killing adds, knock backs, dodging...) in an easy envoriment, so that you already know how to handle them in general when you see them return in a more complexe fight.

You also forget that a higher ilvl renders certain mechanics basically... useless - no need to dodge if the AoE wont kill me or give me a debuff.

And on the one hand I agree with you: People need more of a challenge - not a savage-like challenge, but rather mechanics in dungeons that actually matter.
On the other hand we do have more of those mechanics in current content... on top off: If I run a dungeon for the 50th time, I dont want to wipe because the new french tank and the returning german healer dont speak a word of english and arent willing and able to communicate with the party... when it would be needed to clear the dungeon.
I remember Cutters Cry being HARD and my first group wiping at the first boss for 45 minutes, before we gave up. Wasnt fun. Dont wanna see that again.

Personally, I'm fine with seeing mechanics intruced in dungeons, turning them into a trainings ground for singled out mechanics - and then see them actually really matter in trials, EX-trials and raids.

[AdrenKael]

You also forget that a higher ilvl renders certain mechanics basically... useless - no need to dodge if the AoE wont kill me or give me a debuff.

Let me toss a little math your way. (numbers aren't representative of any particular fight but the general idea is sound)

Healer: 282 DPS with healing tank and no one is standing in stupid
Healer: 100 DPS with healing tank and dps who refuse to move out of ANY aoe
DPS :465 dps while standing in aoes
DPS: 463 dps while moving out of aoes

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

[Dualgunner]

Let me toss a little math your way. (numbers aren't representative of any particular fight but the general idea is sound)

Healer: 282 DPS with healing tank and no one is standing in stupid
Healer: 100 DPS with healing tank and dps who refuse to move out of ANY aoe
DPS :465 dps while standing in aoes
DPS: 463 dps while moving out of aoes

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

The general idea is not sound, and I challenge your numbers. Where'd you get them from? What all are DPS standing in that you have to heal so much you lose almost 66% of your dps, because there have to be a *lot* for them to take up more than 66% of your GCD usage.

[Rongway]

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

[AdrenKael]

The general idea is not sound, and I challenge your numbers. Where'd you get them from? What all are DPS standing in that you have to heal so much you lose almost 66% of your dps, because there have to be a *lot* for them to take up more than 66% of your GCD usage.

The idea IS sound because we're not talking about normal run of the mill stand in one or two aoes. I expect that we're talking about those late night 2 am duty finder runs where the DPS stand in EVERY aoe. If you want to know where the numbers are from they aren't representative of anything in particular but I'll give you a specific example.

In Nidhog in the aery the DPS standing in the flame I did 85% less dps and we failed because I was OOM and the tank died from me healing and rezing the DPS. When we came back and the DPS got their heads of their posterior regions and actually moved DPS shot up the tank stayed at 85% and we completed it in LESS time the it took us to fail the first time.

So please challenge away the fact that DPS stand in stupid slows us down to a crawl. But please let the DPS feel free to tout that standing in stupid makes their DPS go WAY up as they're're tanking the floor.

[AdrenKael]

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

Responsible DPS will move out of AOEs as well we're not talking about responsible DPS here, we're talking about the ones who run around during the fight like a chicken without a head and stand in stupid every opportunity they get.

[Dualgunner]

The idea IS sound because we're not talking about normal run of the mill stand in one or two aoes. I expect that we're talking about those late night 2 am duty finder runs where the DPS stand in EVERY aoe. If you want to know where the numbers are from they aren't representative of anything in particular but I'll give you a specific example.

Saying "the idea IS sound" does not automatically make the idea sound. The fact you just spat out random numbers is a large hamper to your argument and it's hurt your credibility by showing just how hyperbolic you're being.

EDIT: Also, gonna keep that snippet: we're not talking about normal run of the mill duty finder. We're talking about fringe minority cases in which case...

Why bother asking SE "Why bother with mechanics when a fringe minority will ignore all of them?"

In Nidhog in the aery the DPS standing in the flame I did 85% less dps and we failed because I was OOM and the tank died from me healing and rezing the DPS. When we came back and the DPS got their heads of their posterior regions and actually moved DPS shot up the tank stayed at 85% and we completed it in LESS time the it took us to fail the first time.

Those are stupid DDs. They're not "getting more DPS" by standing in any of his fires; if we're talking the cleave? Melee are losing DPS by not getting positionals. The levitating flame orb? Insta wipe, they're idiots if they ignore it. The Ultimate? They're not getting any extra DPS by not standing in the bubble because there is no target to hit. If they're telling you that they're being stupid for DPS, then they're being extra stupid because they're getting no extra DPS in Nidhogg.

All in all? Terrible example. I, again, cite Sigmascape V1.0 (Savage) Head-On strat as being a good example of a time standing in stupid is a buff. Vidu also pointed out that most dungeons we're in, we're so overgeared for that standing in an AoE has no effect on the healer's end, so if it grants the DPS more uptime, then they should do it.

So please challenge away the fact that DPS stand in stupid slows us down to a crawl. But please let the DPS feel free to tout that standing in stupid makes their DPS go WAY up as they're're tanking the floor.

You didn't have to ask, since I already challenged your numbers. Your Nidhogg is a bad example because there is no extra damage to be gained for taking mechanical risks in that fight. Standing in cleaves gives no extra damage. Standing in one-shot fire when there's no target gives no extra damage. Not killing the levitating ball gives no extra damage. They weren't being idiots for extra damage, they were just being idiots.

[miraidensetsu]

The healer has oGCDs that can handle this, if it needs handling at all. Responsible DDs will pop defensives or self heals, and most of the time there isn't incoming damage coming again soon enough that even the irresponsible ones would be in real danger. The scenario you suggest, but with inflated numbers, doesn't really arise until endgame, and that's not what we're talking about.

Yea, true. But healing oGCD have cooldowns. If all of them is on CD, the healer must start spending GCDs on keeping the party alive.

The numbers are really way, way off, but the logic behind it sounds OK if we have some red-circle swimmer DPS. Every healer had to heal those type of people at least once. But for normal runs with DPS's who had an brain, the oGCD healing should be enough to take care of a single or a couple of failed mechanics.

Yes, there are some specific fights that ignoring some specific mechanic really gives a real DPS gain. But, in general, ignore mechanics to "get more DPS" is just an excuse for being bad.

[Dzian]

You're just viewing mechanics through the lens of sync and overgearing.

Of course they need to bother. Each piece of content has a time when it is current and relevant and not cheesable. It's not the developers' fault when people miss out on experiencing these pieces of content when they first get added.

Not really especially with regards to dungeons. They're generally dead on arrival or obselete even before they're added.

So generally speaking dungeons never have a time where they're relevant and not cheesable. Every patch is the same but for example the newly added dungeons in patch 4.4. Tuned to I-level 340 but everyone was already I-370 or there abouts and thus were overgeared before the 4.4 patch even went live.

The result then is the dungeons are obselete before they're even added to the game and thus everyone is cheesing and overpowering them even on day 1 of there release.

There has never been a time where you actually had to do mechanics in kugane castle or the drowned city of scaella. Just 2 of many many examples.

Hell i still dont even know the mechs for scaella but who cares. just stand there throwing out fire 4s all day long even if i have 6 or 7 stacks of whatever that debuff is it poses zero threat.. and in kugane hell you can all stand and dance tet doggo get all the gold and still lol even at i 285 or whatever.

So if dungeons are obsolete, overpowered and cheesed even on day one. What really is the point?

[Vidu]

Let me toss a little math your way. (numbers aren't representative of any particular fight but the general idea is sound)

Healer: 282 DPS with healing tank and no one is standing in stupid
Healer: 100 DPS with healing tank and dps who refuse to move out of ANY aoe
DPS :465 dps while standing in aoes
DPS: 463 dps while moving out of aoes

Net loss of DPS from DPS standing in stupid: 180 DPS

Plenty of reason not to stand in stupid my friend. DPS who stand in stupid actually slow things down.

So... when you say that the numbers arent representative of any particular fight, you actually mean that they're not real numbers but something you made up?
Also nice twisting my words - I never said that DPS can just stand in every AoE, what I said was "If it wont kill me", which includes calculating if there is any incoming damage that cant be avoided that could kill me within the next minute. Personally, I know fights well enough to make such judgment calls. If an AoE will drop my HP to 50% and I have second wind available, I dont really need to move, because I'm still perfectly fine healthwise.

My whole post was about someone (either an indivual or the party together) being able to judge wether to deal with a mechanic the "proper" way, find a way to "cheat" the mechanic or ignore the mechanic alltogether and either heal through it OR just... do nothing about it, because its not needed. And that what makes a fight intresting - to decide how to deal with a mechanic. Hell, we often enough have people in our static during Savage-runs going like "I wont move out of this" with our healers being "Sure, no problem!" - and then making use of their tools to make that possible. And let me assure you that thats not costing them 60% of their DPS.

Obviously you need and should dodge damage/AoEs that will have a negative impact on the party-dps - but thats not the case for all AoEs. And if I have a Medica 2 ticking or an Eos whos out of work, because the boss is merely tickeling the tank, why shouldnt I take advantge of that?

If you want to make a case... dont make it with made numbers and without actually thinking and carefully reading and judging what has been said. I never advoacted for dps to just blindly eat every AoE but to be aware of whats going around them and what tools (CDs, self healing, regens, fairys, earthly star, assylum... etc. - I'm NOT even talking about direct healing that would cost the healer a stone 2) are at their disposal and how best to use those.

Its obviously wrong to say "You can stand in every AoE at anytime!"
But in my opinion its equally wrong to say "You have to avoid every AoE all the time" - because there are circumstances that allow you to actually just take the AoE and keep up your dps without risking your life and even without making the healer work harder. Making those calls correctly is actually part of what makes a good dps - knowing when to sacrfice HP for damage, without sacrificing life.