The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

[Darkpaw]

For those of you who are interested but haven't been following the back and forth on blue mage and it's implementation. I give you my best attempt at a pros and cons list for this implementation and the full "meta implementation"

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[Grimoire-M]

I think it's disingenuous to say that Caster DPS are stale and 'same old same old'. They're one of the most varied roles in terms of playstyle. Red Mage may be a simple 'bar filler' proc-based job right now but there are plenty of ways to expand on its design to make its core rotation and cooldowns even more varied and interesting, and it's movement and positioning requirements are unlike any other job in the game, making it one of the more reactive classes, while keeping things at a fair pace. Black Mage is the de-facto turret DPS and has the easiest base rotation but the highest fight-to-fight variance of any dps job in this game, giving it a wide skill gap. They reward greed and risk. Summoner is a reliable yet flexible damage over time/burst cooldown mage with the ability to alter most of their rotation around based on the fight's needs without losing much, if any uptime while peppering their enemies with a flurry of spells from themselves and their pets, they reward adaptation and planning the most.

What Blue Mage should offer if it were implemented into a core job is something between Samurai, Warrior, and Bard. A caster that bridges the line between man and beast, lashing out with monstrous magic that's almost uncontrollable. This idea is somewhat incompatible with their 'learn' mechanic, but it's how their combat should feel. What I imagined was them having one or two resources, their main one being more granular but prone to fluctuating, with a more stable resource to help build towards spike windows. Much like how Samurai prepares Iaijutsu, Blue mage would charge up, and release stronger blue magic. Where it borrows from Bard, however, is procs. Lots and lots of procs. Whether it's extra damage, or resources, or even just consuming more than you expected. It should feel like you're fighting to keep things stable, but your reward for it is seeing how far you can push it. Red Mage has some of this, but it's not likely to be tapped into. It should keep it's simpler identity and fix some of its problems. Blue Mage, however, should be the Rage Mage. In a way, it would be the opposite to Black Mage, who constantly drains and refills its mana bar at a consistent pace. Blue mage would try to keep its resources somewhere in the middle, lest they gain too much or lose what they have all of a sudden.

[Lambdafish]

I think it's disingenuous to say that Caster DPS are stale and 'same old same old'. They're one of the most varied roles in terms of playstyle.

But BLU adds nothing to that formula. If BLU were to really be BLU it would function the same as BLM with enemy skills tacked on as a mechanic. SMN has pets and RDM has white and black magic, and a melee phase, which are combat changes to the formula. BLU doesn't have those, if you look at the skills itself, they consist of skills with a heavy emphasis on gimmick (Doom, goblin punch, self destruct, matra magic, roulette), level based spells (level 5 death et al), buffing or debuffing (bad breath and lots more), spells that don't fit into the caster role at all (mighty guard, white wind), and elemental spells (BLM).

From that we see a massive amount of pruning and changing to keep within XIVs formula. Gimmick spells are gone, level based spells lose their level based uniqueness, and join the "elemental" spells, buffing and debuffing would be heavily pruned, and mighty guard and white wind would be on par with second wind and third eye. You say that casters are varied, but BLU is not after you strip it of everything that doesn't fit. There is nothing that BLU can bring that shakes up the ranged caster playstyle in the way the RDM or SMN can, and if implemented as a ranged caster, the best we could hope for is a BLM with a gimmick.

[jon041065]

But BLU adds nothing to that formula. If BLU were to really be BLU it would function the same as BLM with enemy skills tacked on as a mechanic. SMN has pets and RDM has white and black magic, and a melee phase, which are combat changes to the formula. BLU doesn't have those, if you look at the skills itself, they consist of skills with a heavy emphasis on gimmick (Doom, goblin punch, self destruct, matra magic, roulette), level based spells (level 5 death et al), buffing or debuffing (bad breath and lots more), spells that don't fit into the caster role at all (mighty guard, white wind), and elemental spells (BLM).

From that we see a massive amount of pruning and changing to keep within XIVs formula. Gimmick spells are gone, level based spells lose their level based uniqueness, and join the "elemental" spells, buffing and debuffing would be heavily pruned, and mighty guard and white wind would be on par with second wind and third eye. You say that casters are varied, but BLU is not after you strip it of everything that doesn't fit. There is nothing that BLU can bring that shakes up the ranged caster playstyle in the way the RDM or SMN can, and if implemented as a ranged caster, the best we could hope for is a BLM with a gimmick.

The spells are absolutely going to be reskins of blm/rdm/whm spells. That's even the case in the announced iteration of blu in the open world. They will behave like our current spells EXCEPT for when you're in the Carnival. That doesn't mean the spells have to serve the same function just as they don't for rdm and blm.

Here's my idea for how they could work in an unique way.

"Another way would be that they could do something similar from another game called Legend of Legaia 2. My idea would be that blu would have fire, wind, earth, and thunder aligned blue spells make up their core rotation. Yes, same as rdm but these could be "physical blue spells". They could function something closer to mudras in that you perform combos with them. Could work like a much expanded mudra system or have the job gauge track like the last 3 elements you have used. There could be 10+ combinations based on which elements and in which order they were used. Fire/earth/fire and earth/fire/earth could give you different results. Could go crazy and have 36 combinations if you made it that each element had its own cooldown so you wouldn't repeat the same element in a row. Have ocgds be things like bad breath and mighty guard and white wind as your group utility cooldowns."

[GrenGarm]

If BLU were to really be BLU it would function the same as BLM with enemy skills tacked on as a mechanic.

This argument shows a profound ignorance of the variety of caster mechanics across different MMOs. Square could easily come up with a design that fits within the FFXIV formula but doesn't feel like an existing caster job.

They've done it for every job in this game so far.

[Shurrikhan]

But BLU adds nothing to that formula. If BLU were to really be BLU it would function the same as BLM with enemy skills tacked on as a mechanic. SMN has pets and RDM has white and black magic, and a melee phase, which are combat changes to the formula. BLU doesn't have those, if you look at the skills itself, they consist of skills with a heavy emphasis on gimmick (Doom, goblin punch, self destruct, matra magic, roulette), level based spells (level 5 death et al), buffing or debuffing (bad breath and lots more), spells that don't fit into the caster role at all (mighty guard, white wind), and elemental spells (BLM).

From that we see a massive amount of pruning and changing to keep within XIVs formula. Gimmick spells are gone, level based spells lose their level based uniqueness, and join the "elemental" spells, buffing and debuffing would be heavily pruned, and mighty guard and white wind would be on par with second wind and third eye. You say that casters are varied, but BLU is not after you strip it of everything that doesn't fit. There is nothing that BLU can bring that shakes up the ranged caster playstyle in the way the RDM or SMN can, and if implemented as a ranged caster, the best we could hope for is a BLM with a gimmick.

This, too, is an oversimplification, and a painful example of projection. That you personally cannot imagine a sensible way to generate satisfying and distinct buttonflow to BLU does not mean that such is impossible. Even your gut image of the job seems... strange, if not outright contradictory. You say BLU is punctuative, focused on particular and effective "gimmick" casts, yet analogize BLU with BLM, a caster to which all but its highest value pure-damage cast spam are trimmed as well as possible for optimization -- almost the exact opposite; you use an infamous non-example to exemplify its core toolkit; and you imply that only one job can rightly make use of elemental spells, despite four jobs already specifically doing so in some form.

When something is given as the solution or handhold for such a solution to a given problem, it is more than a little counterintuitive to then saddle that solution with every issue it may solve. You are assuming that BLU will be integrated without making a single change in direction for the better.

If BLU were ever made an actual job, then development would have a decision to make: should the game expand to accomodate it, or should the job shrink to fit it? As BLU is not presently a real job, that point of decision has not yet been reached and the decision itself, therefore, has not yet been made. You are slipping in a premise here, and it is a dangerously pessimistic one; what you don't confront, you let pass, and by writing as if further mediocrity were only the reasonable conclusion to a pivotal decision, you condone it. I understand that precedent thus far makes that outcome the more likely, but I have to wonder if you're actually okay with it. To assume something lost beforehand, while there is still some chance and room to save or change it, is to abandon it.

I see the present extents of gameplay and each job's design's individual contribution as shallowly simple despite a surprising amount of unintuitive convolution and bloat. I do not suspect that development will see things that way, nor that they'd see eye-to-eye with almost any critic on these forums. But I do think they must at least be aware that each new job provides some amount of opportunity to do something new, and that even something of equal quality to a existent job, if providing nothing new, will be rated lower despite the equal quality. I do not expect that they will send it without hesitation to the same chopping block or cookie cutter born of previous designs. Whether they would succeed it doing something meritous with it, or ultimately somehow even worse, is anyone's guess, but I suspect it will follow the same flaws in vision or philosophy of what a job ought be more so than of templates arrived upon thus far. There will be compromise, and likely a poor result, but there will almost most likely be investigation of some sort that will change what, exactly, goes wrong.

But let us assume, however wrongly, that the developers will have both vision and an uncompromising desire to see BLU done right. Is it really so impossible? And are the few things which are obviously stupid to have in an MMO irreplaceable? Is Level 5 Death fun? Is it fun to have that serves you up to 20% of the time in leveling, one-shots every levelcap dungeon mob (as they are at 50, 60, 70, and soon to be 80), but can do absolutely nothing to bosses? Is it fun to leave that as a basic, spammable spell? Is it more fun for it either kill something entirely or not at all, on a spammable basis, than to use it as a resource spell, or even an LB, serving a chance of instant death based on "Death potency" vs. their remaining HP (to each enemy struck)?

If not, its removal has nothing to do with gutting BLU identity. It has to do with better design. Its "compromise", done well, allows for a more compelling and gameplay-integral design. Ramp up Dark element, spend it on Death in a gambit to eliminate a key but low-resistance or low-HP mob as quickly as possible so others don't have to shift off the closer targets. Likely, the roll would be placed upon a sort of normal distribution or guaranteed at over 70% and guaranteed against if under 30%. Whatever the restrictions, if it succeeds, you'll have smoothed things greatly for the run, perhaps to the point of building enough resource to guarantee it. On the other hand, if it fails, you'll have done only middling damage... and have been refunded some of the resource -- a worse outcome for sure, but hardly one worth the raid committing suicide if the roll fails. That can be entertaining and unique -- perhaps even still a "gimmick" by your definition -- but able to be included in the core game. I'd even argue it'd be far more enjoyable following the spirit of the ability, its desperate gamble, than its exact former iteration, whereby it was a dead button 80% of the time, and could break the game the remaining 20%. The "level-based uniqueness" of Death existed only in an altogether different context -- one where leveling rarely capped before the game ended unless grinding specifically for that purpose, and where combat was of the open world and comparatively dangerous trash mob encounters. The "gamble" aspect, however, survives just fine.

I can readily deconstruct the apparent issues with any of the other BLU skills just as well, though that's not to say that a best possible implementation of BLU, even without the slightest bit of compromise or conformity, will necessarily include every part of or be limited solely to past examples. Please don't confuse a particularly bad implementation with what will necessarily occur.

That's not to say I'm asking you to have faith in the development team -- quite the opposite. I'm asking you not to forgive a failure, to not assume or accept its outcome, before the axe has dropped. XIV has left a poor record, but it really does not help when people either give in -- "that just be XIV" -- or give up entirely.

[Darkpaw]

And in that role.. blue mage does to the other casters what bard has done to machinist. I do appreciate your response and your point of view. My point wasn't to say that the casters are all the exact same, just that they boil down to the same basic formula. Adding another job into that formula no matter how you add variety to the play style does nothing to innovate and branch forward. I'm not looking to start yet another thread about what blue mage could be what it should be.. It is what it is and we don't exactly know what that is until we play it. This is just my quick opinion of the blue mage argument at a glance as an intro to it.

[Dualgunner]

just that they boil down to the same basic formula.

Not in any way that doesn't reduce the entirety of the DPS cast to the same basic formula--that being push buttons in a pattern to deal the most damage. To cast as a Black Mage is immensely different than to cast as a Red Mage, and to cast as a Summoner is a very different thing as well. They all have different goals, and their casts mean different things to them and the choices they need to make. Like I said elsewhere, superficially, yes they all cast, but none of them are some basic mage that casts basic spell. I can't think of any spells between the three that are basically interchangeable in their use. Scathe and Ruin 2 possibly but the problem is Scathe is such a damage loss that BLM would rather clip than use it.

Actually, the healers come close to that, with Stone IV/Malefic/Broil 2 and Aero/Combust/Bio-Miasma-whathaveyou being basically interchangeable, but they obviously don't focus on their damage rotations so much as their own healing kits.

As far as what BLU could add that isn't already there? That's a good question. I personally don't know what or how they could integrate BLU as a caster DPS that would differ from our current trio. Dipping back into RDM specifically, nobody knew how they could have possibly integrated it, and yet they found a niche for RDM to fill with reasonable success, as well as cementing its XIV identity as a balance between its light and dark natures.

Therefore, I don't think it's all that feasible to say they couldn't have found a way to put it in as a caster DPS that would have basically amounted to "basic mage.exe".

Personally, I will always stand behind the idea it should have been a vengeance tank. That idea too has its detractions, but it would be great to have a Learn mechanic based on cooldowns used and turning damage taken into damage given through the fight.

I'll also drop another hot-take. It'd be cool if every job could have a crack at the Masked Carnivale, or content like it.

[Dualgunner]

On phone so I can't edit, but I did want to add:

As much as I dislike this direction they're taking, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about it as well. It's hard, because I was cautiously optimistic for diadem. It flopped. Deep dungeon. Not a flop but not stellar. Gold saucer. Not a flop, not stellar, lots of dead minigames like chocobo racing and lords of verminion. Eureka. Mostly a flop.

At the same time I do see the value in experimenting. I think what a lot of people are most scared of you wrote succinctly: if it does flop, BLU is probably permadead in the game. Nobody wants that. And the best way to prevent that at this point is to give it a fair shake.

[Darkpaw]

On phone so I can't edit, but I did want to add:

As much as I dislike this direction they're taking, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about it as well. It's hard, because I was cautiously optimistic for diadem. It flopped. Deep dungeon. Not a flop but not stellar. Gold saucer. Not a flop, not stellar, lots of dead minigames like chocobo racing and lords of verminion. Eureka. Mostly a flop.

At the same time I do see the value in experimenting. I think what a lot of people are most scared of you wrote succinctly: if it does flop, BLU is probably permadead in the game. Nobody wants that. And the best way to prevent that at this point is to give it a fair shake.

Saying the deep dungeons, eureka, or the gold saucer flopped is a bit of a misnomer. While there was backlash about pagos eureka is mostly enjoyed and successful. Whether you like it or not it would appear the majority of the population is alright with it. Deep dungeons are still played and enjoyed to this day and provide a decent alternative from the usual leveling grind. As for the gold saucer they are consistently trying to reinvigorate that place and add more to it so calling that a flop is inaccurate. Chocobo racing has its niche. While no one can really lords of vermilion the fashion report and the new gate seem quite popular and with the promise of another new gate and “major new content”