Mages: SMN vs. BLM vs. RDM

[Grafeit]

Having a discussion with some players in the FC regarding mages, they’re arguing that RDM is the leader of the pack by a long shot, with BLM behind RDM, and SMN trailing because of “pet issues” and SMN isn’t really neccisary if you have BLM or RDM.

In fact, the comment they said was:
“SMN has sort of pet issues. It’s a bunch of micromanaging pet stuff with not a ton of payoff. Demi-Bahamut is fun but it takes 10 years t get there. Strongest caster is still RDM with BLM being a tight second, and SMN needing some tweaks and fixes before it competes with the other mages.”

And in response to me saying that in a prolonged fight, I think SMN has a higher potential, he said “I’d like to see the logs that support that.”

He very well may be right, but I don’t want him to be, as SMN is really to only DoT class we have, and I sooo badly want it to be good! (EQ2 Warlock main from back in the day..)

Are SMN no longer king?

[Dualgunner]

SMN no longer bring everything a BLM and a RDM (damage and utility) can. They're still a stronger caster than RDM, but not by such a huge margin as in 4.2-4.3, where RDM was an active hindrance to the party.

As far as logs to support that...tell him to just go look at current leaderboards? 75th Chaos RDM is 600 DPS behind 75th Chaos SMN. Middy has RDM 500 behind SMN at 75th. About 700 behind SMN on 11S Omega at 75th. 390 behind SMN on M/F. 400 behind on Final Omega.

You can look at different percentile ranges but no...no RDM is absolutely not the king of casters. If anything, SMN still has that crown due to its sheer mobility that neither of its peers can match, so teams don't need to adapt strategies due to having a caster when that caster can move like a ranger when it needs to. Not only that but SMN also retains its raise ability.

[Grafeit]

Well, thanks! This helps me understand it better. Not really looking for a “Hah, I told you so!” Kind of thing, but just clarification. He wasn’t so far off I guess l, but neither was I.

The mobility I presume comes from RUIN II being instant, and dots being mostly instant, and their pet dealing damage while they are free to run around? So as far as sustainable DPS, they’re probably the leader, whereas the other mages break away in burst DPS?

[Zerathor]

Well, thanks! This helps me understand it better. Not really looking for a “Hah, I told you so!” Kind of thing, but just clarification. He wasn’t so far off I guess l, but neither was I.

The mobility I presume comes from RUIN II being instant, and dots being mostly instant, and their pet dealing damage while they are free to run around? So as far as sustainable DPS, they’re probably the leader, whereas the other mages break away in burst DPS?

Smn is highest burst, blm is highest sustained steady dps. Rdm is somewhere between. Personal dps wise it's blm>smn>rdm

Rdm and smn do have raises for the party however, as well as mild raid dps buffs.

[Grafeit]

BLM is better sustain even though SMN has all of the DoT’s and no real nukes?

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

BLM is better sustain even though SMN has all of the DoT’s and no real nukes?

SMN has plenty of nukes.

Every ~60s you get 3x Fester via Aetherflow -> full Aethertrail Attunement, allowing Dreadwyrm Trance (instant ruin III and refresh tri disaster plus damage buff while in DWT), ending with Death Flare. After two dreadwyrm trances you have two dreadwyrm aether, allowing you to summon Bahamut, giving you two Akh Morns plus multiple wyrmwaves. It is highly recommended to hold Bahamut until you have Aetherflow ready to use Fester along other ogcds and ruin II to max out the wyrmwave casts.

Fester - 300 pot
Deathflare - 400 pot
Akh Morn - 680 pot

It seems trivial compared to BLM's 540 effective potency on Fire IV and Enochian damage buff at first, but SMN's dots, ruin fillers, pet damage and ogcd bursts add up really fast, especially burst wise.

[Karshan]

SMN has plenty of nukes.

Every ~60s you get 3x Fester via Aetherflow -> full Aethertrail Attunement, allowing Dreadwyrm Trance (instant ruin III and refresh tri disaster plus damage buff while in DWT), ending with Death Flare. After two dreadwyrm trances you have two dreadwyrm aether, allowing you to summon Bahamut, giving you two Akh Morns plus multiple wyrmwaves. It is highly recommended to hold Bahamut until you have Aetherflow ready to use Fester along other ogcds and ruin II to max out the wyrmwave casts.

Fester - 300 pot
Deathflare - 400 pot
Akh Morn - 680 pot

It seems trivial compared to BLM's 540 effective potency on Fire IV and Enochian damage buff at first, but SMN's dots, ruin fillers, pet damage and ogcd bursts add up really fast, especially burst wise.

680 is pet potency though, Akh Morn is actually 550 to compare with other spells (80%)

[Grafeit]

So I guess what I meant by saying “No Nukes” is that BLM hits harder but slower, whereas because of DoT ticks, SMN doesn’t hit as hard but it’s more frequent.

Also, I didn’t realize that’s how SMN player. In low level dungeons I feel like SMN was all about maintaining DoTs and filling with ruin, so I’ve never played SMN past level 41.

Is SMN honestly THAT micromanage-y when it comes to their pet? I honestly never bothered with managing my pet on SMN or SCH, but again, I’ve never even been close to end game.

[Zerathor]

So I guess what I meant by saying “No Nukes” is that BLM hits harder but slower, whereas because of DoT ticks, SMN doesn’t hit as hard but it’s more frequent.

Also, I didn’t realize that’s how SMN player. In low level dungeons I feel like SMN was all about maintaining DoTs and filling with ruin, so I’ve never played SMN past level 41.

Is SMN honestly THAT micromanage-y when it comes to their pet? I honestly never bothered with managing my pet on SMN or SCH, but again, I’ve never even been close to end game.

Nah, I meant it how I said the first time. Blm is always chucking out high potency spells nonstop, with 3 gcds every 30 seconds being slightly lower (b3 b4 t3 if not a tc t3) so their damage is extremely steady. Smn however is mostly burst cds. Their bahamut, and dwt, and aetherflow fester weaves. Outside of that, the other 60% of the time they're just keeping dots up and spamming r3 waiting for more cds. This is why on opener you'll see a smn spike over 13k, then rapidly decay to 8k ish, where as a blm goes to 9k, and generally stays there until he messes up or the fight doesn't let him target the boss.

This is why you can die in a fight as a blm, and generally get right back up and keep going, but smn however... if you had bahamut ready and just popped aetherflow for all your bahamut weaves, but then die before using any of it.... not only does your smn die, but you your will to continue the fight does as well. Dying is bad no matter what of course, but you die on the inside if you die as smn.

[Grafeit]

Haha, I think you misunderstood me. I was correcting what I said, not what you said.

Also...I didn’t consider the drop in DPS if a SMN dies..ouch! I suddenly feel depressed on behalf of every SMN that has happened to.