A question for the BLU peeps

[Reynhart]

You want to join the leveling roulette at level 50? Great! You need skills 1-20 for BLU, puppets or what not 1-20, and such and such beasts. They won't play optimally? Guess what, it's not limited to those jobs.

This has come several times, and it wouldn't work. First, there's nothing saying that BLU spells will have a level (Probably even the opposite), so 1-20 doesn't even make sense. Second, even if BLU spells have a level, if you can only equip 10 spells over choice of 15, this could still create an argument because you prefer to use some spells over another while someone else disagree. Worst case scenario, some of those spells/pet/attachments might even be really hard to get, so it's expected that not everyone will have them.

I you want a little fun, imagine if jobs could only equip 8 of their 14 skills.You would end with tanks without their tank stance in roulettes...

What gets me is that the whole "you can't learn it through leveling" thing is rubbish. We're two expansions in where the job skills you get are locked to your job, and don't come from your class. Lore wise, this means that we learned the skill from the Soul Crystal.

This has been said multiple times. If BLU doesn't learn monster skills from actually seeking them, doesn't have a wide varitey of offensive spells because elements don't matter, and doesn't have powerful support spells, because it still need to be a DPS and must be balanced with everything else, what's the difference between a Blue Mage or a Red Mage/Black Mage dressed in Blue ?

I would even argue that such a thing can be applied to Beastmaster and Puppetmaster, if they say that the 'beasts' and 'puppets' are aetherial constructs like SCH's fairy.

Puppets works nothing like SCH's fairy. For once, we can't avoid the FFXI comparison, since PUP appeared only in XI. The variety of head, body and attachments completely changes how PUP perform in a party, yet alone a trinity based party.

The dev team is still afraid that matchmaking would collapse if they offered talent trees and special items bonuses for jobs that are completely locked into a role, how can you imagine allowing choices in hybrid jobs so that random grouping would still be ok ?

[BillyKaplan]

They are going to have to allow progression into lv60, 70, and 80.

They don't have to do anything, and going by what Yoshi said in Fanfest, I doubt they'll let it be 80 anytime before the rest of us can hit 90. And that's one thing that worries me about BLU. Ok, Masked Carnival, cool. And then what? They actually have no reason to up the level cap without providing it with new content, in which case constantly feeding the one job content can be seen with scrutiny. Any other content more or less lets you pick what class to run it on based on your preference, so jobs keep getting content by virtue of the game at large expanding. BLU will be limited, content-wise and gameplay-wise. So we're at a contradiction - it doesn't sound like they'll let it hit level cap, but at the same time, if it doesn't... what then?

If they rely on heavy RNG to acquire skills to stretch things out, it's going to be bad.

Sounds like that's where it's going.

It definitely isn't going to be tough to do pre-made parties with all them that will be running around.

Not on release, no. What happens when the hype dies down?

This has been said multiple times. If BLU doesn't learn monster skills from actually seeking them, doesn't have a wide varitey of offensive spells because elements don't matter, and doesn't have powerful support spells, because it still need to be a DPS and must be balanced with everything else, what's the difference between a Blue Mage or a Red Mage/Black Mage dressed in Blue ?

You do realize BLM and RDM play differently, right? By that logic, we should limit it to one job per role and call it a way. Also depending on who you ask in the forums, BLU seems to be just someone who uses enemy attacks, so it would still abide by that criteria. And you missed the part where I didn't say to gut the solo skill-hunting part. So you know.

The dev team is still afraid that matchmaking would collapse if they offered talent trees and special items bonuses for jobs that are completely locked into a role, how can you imagine allowing choices in hybrid jobs so that random grouping would still be ok ?

I don't expect them to offer choices outside of those jobs' "limited job" content.

[Videra]

Take BLM, rename it's skills and you get the BLU you want so badly.

It won't do element damage or anything unique in a fight which then begs the question: Why do you want a reskinned BLM so badly?

I vote A. It's different from everything else and that gives me motivation to play it. If it was what people want, I wouldn't even unlock it as I already have a BLM.

But it's not new or different at all. It is literally Logos actions. And yes, while Logos Actions are fun, nobody is asking for SE to water it down. What we're asking for on our side is a fundamental change later down the line. Usually in the form of a curated spell list that goes into effect in actual, relevant content. This could take until 6.0. I repeat, nobody is asking that SE can BLU's development cycle, the neat side content, or make a "watered down BLM clone". This is not a "Us VS Them" scenario.

[Alleo]

They are going to have to continuously keep BLU updated. They are going to have to allow progression into lv60, 70, and 80. If they rely on heavy RNG to acquire skills to stretch things out, it's going to be bad.

And those are the problems for me. Remember Egi Glamour and them promising more in later patches? Yeah we still did not get another glamour after carbuncle. A lot of other mini games are left behind in this game so what gives the safety that they will be better with Blue? And how often should they update it? Every patch? Every second patch? Once per expansion? And wouldnt each and every one of these updates and changes not kinda take away from the rest of the game since they have a restriction on how much they can do. What will happen later if they truly introduce more limited jobs?

They also already pointed out that level updates will happen with Shadowbringer patches, thus I doubt that it will ever be max level in a expansion because that would 100% mess up raids. They also stated that this would be a limited job and mostly solo so there is no promise that we will get the highest level in this.

They also hinted that you will have to grind monsters to get the skills, that there is only a chance to get one. That sounds a lot like RNG and knowing SE this will probably be quite harsh because this content needs to be stretched.

About OP: Not going to answer the question if its already that biased.

[Melichoir]

I'll go with the "added like it is and then a full version of the job or a curated and balanced spell set is added to let the job be used in the full game at a later date" option.

Not everyone views blue mage identity as something that is so wrapped up in what the spells have been programed to do in any given entry in the FF franchise. Many of us would accept spells that gave a similar feeling and they could take on an additional function as well. There have been many blue magic spells that have gone through several iterations so what's wrong with XIV having its own versions?

This conversation is gonna go round and around again...

Ok.

It's not about the specific spells, but rather about how the class functions on Paper. ON PAPER, the class learns specialty skills from monsters. The skills learned are unique compared to other classes, because monster skills broadly are made to be drastically more powerful in the games dynamics. Bad breath, as an example, is not super Overpowered in the regards of a monster casting it on a group due to how the balance is set. This is because monsters, on average, are more powerful pound for pound than players are. This then forces players to group up and coordinate to take down monsters. HOWEVER, this same spell in REVERSE would be exceptionally powerful against monsters. Applying Multiple Status effects + damage to a large AoE is incredibly powerful.

To offset that power, you would have to mitigate the skills output. Remove much of its damage, range, and status effects to make it on par with other classes. In this case, Bad breath would probably have a range similar to Overpower, at most 1 status effect, and deal moderate damage. If it had more than one status effect, it would be given a long cooldown. You have to make the skills comparable to other classes in output. If the skill gets weakened down to that point, than bad breath just becomes a reskinned version of already pre-existing skills.

Ok so whats wrong with that?

There isnt anything wrong with that, but now you have to change up how the class functions. You have to start incorporating a priority/rotation system into how the class plays so the class has actual gameplay and challange. All classes have this to some extent. As a comparison, BLM has the Ice/Fire management among using CDs, RDM has hte Light/DRK system and its procs, SUMMONER has aetherflow and Bahamut gauge. The classes are designed to have a system to how the spells are used. BLU would have to have a system of that kind implemented.

What would that mean for BLU then? It would change what BLU is on paper. ON PAPER, BLU is a mage who learns its skills from Monsters and then uses those same said skills. However, if the skills are dumb downed to be on par with all the other classes, this becomes a super gimmicky way to learn your skills compared to all the other classes, and what it then does offer is just a new rotation/priority system for you to play. This isnt what people were asking for. People wanted to use Monster skills, and they did not mean that as merely reskinned versions of already existing skills. The argument to just "Balance it for party play" means making it just a reskinned BLM/SMN/RDM. And this ISNT what people wanted.

I honestly believe the biggest issue is people do not understand that to balance the class for party play would result in many of the skills being gutted. It's assumed that it would be "Easy" to balance the class and the devs are just lazy. This stems from people not actually thinking about how the balance would actually be handled realistically. Its super easy to say "Yeah Ill just reduce the damage and maybe knock off a few status effects and Bad Breath will be balanced", but in reality, a class that could cast a spell with multiple status effects at once in an aoe is powerful. Notice how NO other class has that functionality. And thats just one skill.

And in regards to "Create a solo play version" and a "Party Play Version", youre essentially asking the Devs to create two classes that happen to have the same name. Which is the biggest rub of all: It feels an awful lot like people who want the party version of blue dont actually give a butt about the class on paper. They just want a caster thats called BLUE MAGE for party, even if it ends up being a re-skin of an existing caster.

[Reynhart]

This doesn't really make sense because, BLU has always been gated from learning certain spells based off of what level it is

No, the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI. For every other game, it's just that later monsters tend to teach more powerful spells, and it has nothing to do with the level you are to learn or use a spell. That's exactly why, in FFV, you only have Blue! instead of Blue1! to Blue6!. More importantly, in FFV, Blue Magic is learned by the party, which means a high level Master Blue Bartz could learn a spell usable by a very low level Blue 0 Krile.

there are very clear early, mid, and end game sets of skills that you are supposed to learn in order, Aero, Aero II and Aero III being examples from V.

No one cares what the order you're supposed to learn spells. White, Black and Red Mages don't have a choice of learning lower tier before higher ones.

They don't have to do anything, and going by what Yoshi said in Fanfest, I doubt they'll let it be 80 anytime before the rest of us can hit 90.

Problem is, they didn't confirmed anything on that. They only said that BLU's cap will increase later.

You do realize BLM and RDM play differently, right? By that logic, we should limit it to one job per role and call it a way.

Indeed, they managed to create a gimmick for RDM, and people are ok because eveybody know that making a RDM master of none would have made it useless in group content, so they were open.

Now that I think of it, you said something really interesting :

We're two expansions in where the job skills you get are locked to your job, and don't come from your class. Lore wise, this means that we learned the skill from the Soul Crystal.

You're right, but BLU isn't an expansion job. And you don't know how it will be managed when it enters expansion territory.

I don't expect them to offer choices outside of those jobs' "limited job" content.

But on the other hand, it could open the door for more limited features and choices. Talent and item special bonuses could be deactivated in matchmaking but usable in premade.

[jon041065]

Because BLU is historically one of the few jobs that don't learn spells by simply leveling or buying them in shops, you have to go out of the way to gather them. The other popular job to have that kind of mechanic is SMN, and people still complain about how it's not truthful to what it shoud be.

It's not unreasonable to have a BLU missing some skills or a SMN missing a few summons, but, in a system that's built on random matchmaking, it could be a real issue, either for the BLU itself or the party he's randomly put into.

They also mentionned Beastmaster and Puppetmaster as ideas for limited jobs, and again, those jobs need to collect things to be really efficient. I really think that's the deciding factor.

Then make it a requirement that you know some or all of the spells before unlocking the job for the rest of the game. Or tell the people that are so worried about being kicked for this reason to make groups with friends or use premade finder. Tell them to use one of the options available to them instead of taking away an option from everyone.

No, the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI. For every other game, it's just that later monsters tend to teach more powerful spells, and it has nothing to do with the level you are to learn or use a spell. That's exactly why, in FFV, you only have Blue! instead of Blue1! to Blue6!. More importantly, in FFV, Blue Magic is learned by the party, which means a high level Master Blue Bartz could learn a spell usable by a very low level Blue 0 Krile.

No one cares what the order you're supposed to learn spells. White, Black and Red Mages don't have a choice of learning lower tier before higher ones.

Do you know for sure there won't be a level requirement to learning spells? They already said they were will be job quests so maybe you get a trait from them to learn the higher level spells. And even in the past FF games that didn't require a level to learn, you basically were still level locked away from spells because you had to progress in the story to get to those enemies and be capable of defeating them.

Take BLM, rename it's skills and you get the BLU you want so badly.
It won't do element damage or anything unique in a fight which then begs the question: Why do you want a reskinned BLM so badly?
I vote A. It's different from everything else and that gives me motivation to play it. If it was what people want, I wouldn't even unlock it as I already have a BLM.

This is at least the second time I've seen you post this and you never respond to when we say that the blue spells are ALREADY reskinned spells or taken from eureka. That they can function differently though like how rdm and blm spells don't serve the same function for their unique mechanic.

This isn't XI though. XI has it's own engine that operates differently from XIV. BLU won't have the choice go as a melee or a caster. In raiding content, it will be assigned a slot, and that is where it will go. The way BLU is coming into XIV now is actually more similar to how I remember playing it in XI than it would be if brought in to fit into current content in XIV. If brought in to fit current content, BLU would be closer to the casters we already have. Do you really want that? Just think about our SMN class before answering that.


If this is truly the case, then it's time for those concerned about this version of BLU coming into FFXIV to wait things out and see how things go. SE can't brush this aside like how they have with the squadron and companion systems. They are going to have to continuously keep BLU updated. They are going to have to allow progression into lv60, 70, and 80. If they rely on heavy RNG to acquire skills to stretch things out, it's going to be bad.

I think you are partially correct though. A lot of the initial shock has become calm, but that doesn't mean that players still aren't chomping at the bit already for 5.0 announcements concerning BLU. As it is now, if you are on board then when 4.5 comes give it a go. It definitely isn't going to be tough to do pre-made parties with all them that will be running around.

Oh boy, you said that if blu were given job soulstones for different roles then each role would only use certain spells and the rest of what you have learned and spent time on would have been a waste of time essentially. I was stating that is already the case on XI basically and that it's STILL one of the most popular jobs. So you're point wasn't much of one. And no, I would have preferred a tank or melee but that doesn't mean that blu as a caster has to function like the caster dps we already have.

No, right now is the best time to give our feedback that we think a combat job with these kinds of restrictions that make it more about a mini game than being an actual combat job is a terrible idea.

There's a lot on our side that have already unsubbed, were planning on returning to the game but not going to now, or are just boycotting by refusing to play as or with blue mages. Be ready to potentially see more anger if there isn't an announcement during the Dec live letter to address the backlash and there will definitely be more after the 4.5 patch goes live and more people realize how limited blue mage is going to be.

snip

They are already having to bring the power of the enemy abilities into line with the power the legit combat jobs have or else blue mages would be going around destroying A/S rank hunts and fate NMs.

Bad breath could have more range than Overpower, deal decent damage along with a DoT, and then also have the trick attack damage taken debuff. Put it on a 1min cooldown with the 10sec damage taken debuff to start shaking up the meta or give it less uptime on the debuff to not shake up the meta.

Or have bad breath with more range than Overpower, deal decent damage, and then apply the fire, water, earth, poison, miasma, disease, and bleed Dots that are already in the game so still feels like you're applying a lot of status ailments.

You only speak for yourself. SOME people were not wanting jobs with rotations/priority systems but then I have to wonder why they are playing the game. PLENTY of people that were wanting blue mage expected it to function similar to all the other combat jobs we already have but with enemy abilities and an unique mechanic or two. Besides, most of the blue spells will just be reskinned spells except for when you're in the Carnival and are playing with the different rules in that content.

We said that there are multiple ways of giving our side what we want without taking away from what the solo people are getting. IF they did different job stones, then it could be "Blue Mage" and "Carnival Mage" or even have one of them be "Blu Mage". I doubt many on our side would care if we were the "Blu Mage".

[Paladinleeds]

snip

Since I can't grab the full thing, I'll just snip it down. But with regards to the job gauge, perhaps there could be certain things that build up a job gauge, and the monster spells cost various amounts from the job gauge? I'm assuming that small blast of white energy we see in the trailer is the auto-attack, but why not make it a level 1 spell like "Jolt" that builds up a small amount of blue gauge (let's call it Blue Mana). Let's say 1 Blue Mana per cast. It can have up to 1'000 Blue Mana at any one time (same amount as TP). Different monster abilities will cost different amounts of Blue Mana. So for example Bad Breath could cost the full 1'000. But something like that sheep's sleep spell in Bardam's Mettle could cost say 50 Blue Mana. Then, it becomes a task of managing your Blue Mana. You gather mana and spend it according to the needs required. You could even limit it to certain spells within a group setting if needed.

I mean, this might be a total garbage idea, but it's a way I think it could potentially work.

EDIT: Note that I don't have any real investment in this class, I'm hoping for DNC healer, if I don't get that, will stick with WHM.

[jon041065]

Since I can't grab the full thing, I'll just snip it down. But with regards to the job gauge, perhaps there could be certain things that build up a job gauge, and the monster spells cost various amounts from the job gauge? I'm assuming that small blast of white energy we see in the trailer is the auto-attack, but why not make it a level 1 spell like "Jolt" that builds up a small amount of blue gauge (let's call it Blue Mana). Let's say 1 Blue Mana per cast. It can have up to 1'000 Blue Mana at any one time (same amount as TP). Different monster abilities will cost different amounts of Blue Mana. So for example Bad Breath could cost the full 1'000. But something like that sheep's sleep spell in Bardam's Mettle could cost say 50 Blue Mana. Then, it becomes a task of managing your Blue Mana. You gather mana and spend it according to the needs required. You could even limit it to certain spells within a group setting if needed.

I mean, this might be a total garbage idea, but it's a way I think it could potentially work.

EDIT: Note that I don't have any real investment in this class, I'm hoping for DNC healer, if I don't get that, will stick with WHM.

Hoping that dnc is a healer as well and a full job.

I made a short write up for how blu could be unique as a caster (and melee) in my thread here. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Blu-Concepts

TLDR: Give at least four blu spells an elemental affinity (fire,earth,water,wind) that you would use to spell weave 3 part combos. Put a restriction that you can not use the same element twice in a row and you could still have a potential 36 combos. Job gauge could show the most recent elements you have used so you don't lose track of what combo you're doing and then can have that fill up a bar that is spent on things like bad breath.

[Skyskip]

I don't understand you 'wait and see' people.

What are you waiting to see? Their intentions were very clear.

Also to answer the OP's question- I want a BLU playable in all content that every other job can access, full stop, no matter what sacrifices to be made to accomplish that.