A question for the BLU peeps

[Lunalepsy]

We need a full version, not some unfinished showcase class.

[Videra]

Looking at the facts:


Blue Mage can be made to work in the duty finder, it could take well until 6.0 to balance it and that would be fine. As long as it happens. As it stands an actual class being relegated to side-content nonsense is unacceptable. Note that I am not saying they should can the carnival or anything, it sounds neat, but it shouldn't be the focus of an entire class. And if you're going to argue theme at me, very well. That's how you look at it, I do not agree with you on any level, but it's a fair enough opinion to hold.

All that aside, the concept of limited jobs on it's own needs to be tossed out the window. Or at least reworked to something of a 'beta-testing' phase for more gimmicky, unique classes in future.

[JBee]

Based strictly on what we have been told - no assumptions - I'm already disappointed. But, my disappointment is not black and white.

We know it will begin at level 1 with a level cap of 50, and the level cap will increase in the future with patches. We were not told definitively how close to cap it would reach, or the overall timetables - just that the cap would increase in 5.0+.

We know you cannot queue solo for a dungeon/trial you would otherwise be allowed to based on your job and/or ilvl. You cannot do daily roulettes as a BLU.

We know you can enter a dungeon/trial as a part of a fully formed group. If you really want to run Sastasha as a BLU, you can - if you have three people queued with you and go in together.

We know one reason for the DF lockout is to prevent player harassment issues. One of the reasons stated for this decision to lock BLU out of DF is players potentially griefing/riding/harassing others, by either not having appropriate abilities unlocked or equipped.

We know there is the level 50 Masked Carnivale - that is BLU only. It was teased as a ladder style arena fight, to fight through X monsters for rewards of some variety.

We know at BLU launch there will be 49 unique abilities we can learn - somehow. What they are and how we acquire them precisely is not clear as of yet.

We know there is an element of RNG to learning abilities. How rare, how often, etc, is unknown.

We know Blue Mage is a new, limited job that is intended to be a Solo Job - by design. They are, as I understood it, opting to add in more unique abilities at the expense of balancing for group content.

We DO NOT know the future intentions of this Limited Job, outside of this. People have been voicing concerns of this being the next Lord of Verminion - or Eureka the Job. We haven't actually seen it yet, so we just do not know where it will fall on the spectrum. People saying to wait and see how it plays are absolutely right - what they are planning may in itself be very good...

We know the people who wanted to Main BLU in current content now have no chance of that, short of something we now know being changed. And for that section of people, they have every right to be disappointed - waiting potentially YEARS for something and then it to be snuffed out like that is a blow, regardless of which job it is.

I wish Limited Jobs based on previous jobs in the franchise would never be introduced, because by nature they are going to definitively disappoint a section of the playerbase. Make something new and limited, yes - reuse something from a previous game as limited, no.

Will I unlock it? Probably.

Will I enjoy it? Maybe.

Am I disappointed? Absolutely.

[Melichoir]

And today you could easily say that Red Mage in FFXIV is not RDM, at least not in spirit. You would almost universally be called foolish, but you could say it, and in the truest most technical sense, you would still be correct. XIV's Red Mage does not have the classic jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none style that Red Mage is known for, but that doesn't matter because the job is still fun. And despite being forced to conform to the confines of XIV's systems, very few people would argue that it doesn't still feel like playing a Red Mage. There is no reason to assume that the same thing couldn't have been done with Blue Mage.

I absolutely understand the excitement for the new type of content that Limited Blue Mage will bring, and the fatigue of getting new jobs that need to fit into the same set roles. Those are perfectly valid opinions to have. But the claim that Blue Mage could never have been implemented as a standard job while still keeping its identity is, at the very least, misguided.

The identity of BLU has always been very specific. A caster who learns monster skills and then uses them. That is its identity. It is not like most other class identities in that their skill sets and playstyles define them. In this specific case, it is the idea of using Monster Skills.

What you still keep failing to resolve is that IF you shift power away from Monster skills and what that identity has in built to it, you will need to create a NEW identity that is IN LINE with all the other jobs, thus mitigating the very defining feature of BLU from the get go. You cant have its identity be "learn skilsl from monsters" if that identity is meaningless in the scope of all the player classes. Its meaningless to learn monster skills if theyre no better or worse compared to any other class but rather its just a harder and more convoluted method of learning skills.

Regarding the situational playstyle versus the usual dps rotation, I think the Perform system which was made for BRD would be great for BLU. Activate "Solo Mode" and a new set of action bars pop up, and they include a selection of monster skills you are supposed to use outdoors and in the Carnival (what has been developed for the job so far). The skills you can put on these action bars come from a separate list of skills you learn from monsters through RNG, will never be balanced, are easy to implement because of that, and cannot be used against enemies higher than level 50 or in instances except the Carnival.

Another set of skills could be learned through job quests up to level 70, which would enable BLU to be a real job that can do every piece of content this game has to offer. These job quests could be ignored by anyone who does not like the play style, and this would prevent the player from entering any content BLU is currently planned to be banned from.

The issue here is youd need to create to combat systems for one class. They would literally need to design 2 classes and then roll it into one. This would actually mean changing things in regards to how the game operates which isnt an easy task (not impossible though). This then also then opens up the question of "Why not do this for every class?". Youll see more fracturing in the player base as a result, I believe. From a purely design perspective, while possible, this solution isnt financially feasible unless the goal is to introduce less classes overall.

Additionally, nerfing dps does not have to mean loss of skill potency. It can also be done by increasing the casting time or cooldown of skills. It would be possible to have massive nukes in the party-oriented rotation learned from job quests. A slow casting mage or a mage weaving several mid-length or long cooldowns in their base rotation would both be a totally new kind of mage play style, which shows that BLU doesn't have to be a copy of other mages.

The stronger the skill, the greater the 'shackle' will be on that skill. A skill like "Bad Breath" would likely have a 5-6 minute cooldown on it for its power and would force it to be heavily situational. This changes the focus from those monster skills to whatever filler skill you have, and then revolves around the playstyle around that filler skill. Youd end up with a more homogenized class that has mini limit breaks every few minutes. Itd be different, yes. But playstyle wouldnt revolve around those monster skills.

See, this is where I get confused. It is not BLU's identity to be OP. It is not BLU's identity to have 40+ skills to pick from with some completely breaking the game. And it is not BLU's identity to be a solo class. That was neverBLU's identity.


BLU's only identity is learning and using monster skills, full stop. Nothing else. Those skills can be balanced for the job's hands and have been in many of the games. There's nothing wrong with FFXIV doing it as well. Please stop adding all these other factors to BLU's identity and then claim that balancing the job will ruin it.

This is where youre not reading into what that means. BLU can learn monster skills, but those skills HAVE to be balanced in relation to ALL the other classes. This means NERFs to the monster skills. If you nerf those monster skills, that means BLU will have to function in a party environment. This means incorporating a playstyle that is of the same caliber as all the other classes. Unique maybe to BLU itself, but broadly within the same power range. This means monster skills arent 'special', but rather just a weird and more difficult way for a class to get its skills compared to everyone else. And its playstyle switches away from "Look at these monster skills I get to use" to " Look at these skills I had to grinded from monsters to use in this rotation/resource management system".

There is a subtle difference but it is noticeable. Do you want BLU to use Monster Skills, or do you want BLU to use skills he had to grind from Monsters. One is direct 1:1, the other is just a more difficult job quest. I think if people took a step back and thought about that, theyd realize that this wouldnt be fun and wouldnt be what they wanted UNLESS all you really wanted was a new caster who was called blue mage.

A better way to think of this is do this in REVERSE of what theyre doing.

So they make BLU mage, and it learns its skill from monsters. The skills would be nerfed so BLU wouldnt be OP. Thered be a rotation/resource management system in place because you wouldnt have a class that would just spam the strongest skill nonstop. This would require an order to the skills, so youd have to get them in some relative order for the sake of balance, because getting a skill that youd normally get at 50 but at lvl 20 would be OP. You couldnt make the RNG on getting skills so difficult either cause that would bar people from playing the content effectively.

At this point What is then the defining factor of BLU? For the sake of balance, skills would have a relative order of progression, they would be relatively easy to obtain, and would fit into a resource managements system thats consistent with caster party play.

How is that substantially different from other casters, and how does getting skills from monsters make it unique compared to getting them from NPCs?

[BubblyBoar]

This is where youre not reading into what that means. BLU can learn monster skills, but those skills HAVE to be balanced in relation to ALL the other classes. This means NERFs to the monster skills. If you nerf those monster skills, that means BLU will have to function in a party environment. This means incorporating a playstyle that is of the same caliber as all the other classes. Unique maybe to BLU itself, but broadly within the same power range. This means monster skills arent 'special', but rather just a weird and more difficult way for a class to get its skills compared to everyone else. And its playstyle switches away from "Look at these monster skills I get to use" to " Look at these skills I had to grinded from monsters to use in this rotation/resource management system".

There is a subtle difference but it is noticeable. Do you want BLU to use Monster Skills, or do you want BLU to use skills he had to grind from Monsters. One is direct 1:1, the other is just a more difficult job quest. I think if people took a step back and thought about that, theyd realize that this wouldnt be fun and wouldnt be what they wanted UNLESS all you really wanted was a new caster who was called blue mage.

A better way to think of this is do this in REVERSE of what theyre doing.

So they make BLU mage, and it learns its skill from monsters. The skills would be nerfed so BLU wouldnt be OP. Thered be a rotation/resource management system in place because you wouldnt have a class that would just spam the strongest skill nonstop. This would require an order to the skills, so youd have to get them in some relative order for the sake of balance, because getting a skill that youd normally get at 50 but at lvl 20 would be OP. You couldnt make the RNG on getting skills so difficult either cause that would bar people from playing the content effectively.

At this point What is then the defining factor of BLU? For the sake of balance, skills would have a relative order of progression, they would be relatively easy to obtain, and would fit into a resource managements system thats consistent with caster party play.

How is that substantially different from other casters, and how does getting skills from monsters make it unique compared to getting them from NPCs?

But BLU magic has been balanced in every game to date. FFXIV would be no different.

[Gemina]

Gemina used the phrase "can't put a square peg in a round hole", which is a working metaphor, but it is not the idiom. It is simply wrong because Blue Mage can be made to fit duty finder, but the phrase itself I never questioned. She however linked the wikipedia article about the "square peg in a round hole", suggesting that she used this idiom...and that's simply wrong. It is an incorrect use of the idiom. The moment she tried to put a tag of the idiom on her metaphor is when she made an error. That's all..

Look, I can break down everything you've stated since I last posted but I am going to leave it to just this right here, because this takes it back the very beginning where it becomes clear you are thinking far past the intention behind that statement.

You understand that it is a metaphoric representation of BLU and the current state of FFXIV. However, the phrase itself is recognized as a popular idiom. If you google the damn phrase, you won't have to search far at all to find the word 'idiom' tied to it. I linked it simply because I felt like it, but this does not make it erroneous. I felt like linking it because when you click it, the first thing you read is, "Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist who could not fit into a niche of their society." What I am trying to express doesn't go beyond that. It is intended to be a metaphor because I didn't want to have to type all of that out in order to reapply a reality check to the BLUs with the blues. It most definitely was not intended as an opening for a philosophical debate regarding the semantics and proper use of the word idiom.

Look at all your long winded posts to myself and those also trying to get the point across to you. You're not even trying to prove I'm wrong anymore. You're now trying to prove you're right. Just let it go. If you want to keep the discussion pertained to why you disagree with me about BLU not being able to stay true to form with the current state of FFXIV, I'm more than happy to go toe-to-toe with ya.

[Reynhart]

But BLU magic has been balanced in every game to date. FFXIV would be no different.

Blue Mage is horribly imbalanced in most games. In V, it can cheese a lot of bosses that other jobs would have to fight the fair way. In VII, it gives access to more powerful spells than most materias, for cheaper and far earlier, and in IX, with the proper setup, it allows Quina to hit damage cap from the very beginning.

The only games where Blue Magic could arguably be balanced are the two that considered it so powerful that they were used as Limit Break.

[Jandor]

The only games where Blue Magic could arguably be balanced are the two that considered it so powerful that they were used as Limit Break.

Some job gauges arguably already function similarly to solo limit breaks.

Building up BLU gauge in order to use big BLU attacks seems a very reasonable way to adapt BLU to FFXIV.

[Kahnom]

I never use Blue Mage in any FF games.so I’m not really like or hate the job.
My choice is
D) Doesn’t matter which form BLU gonna be in FF 14,its just another job to lvl up for me.
As in ... not really care.

[Beckett]

Blue Mage is horribly imbalanced in most games. In V, it can cheese a lot of bosses that other jobs would have to fight the fair way. In VII, it gives access to more powerful spells than most materias, for cheaper and far earlier, and in IX, with the proper setup, it allows Quina to hit damage cap from the very beginning.

The only games where Blue Magic could arguably be balanced are the two that considered it so powerful that they were used as Limit Break.

But let's be real, you can break those games in all kinds of other ways with non-enemy skills. In that sense, blue magic is "balanced" in those games, in that everything is equally broken.