A question for the BLU peeps

[Gemina]

I think you didn't even read the article you linked. Not only did you use the wrong idiom, but you are also entirely incorrect.

You can fit a square peg in a round hole, and a round peg in a square hole. The peg simply needs to be small enough. It will not fit perfectly though, leaving spots "free". That is why it is an idiom about society. People not suited to some sort of society due to cultural, ideological or religious reasons still can (and do) live in it, but they never really "fit in" properly.

OMG, what? Are you also the type of person to deny facts such as evolution, human influenced climate change, and the Earth being round? Several times now you come here challenging my statements saying I don't know what I'm talking about when all evidence shows the opposite. There's no variable here explaining how large or small the peg is. If you've ever done a logic puzzle, or any kind of conclusive reasoning you would know that thinking about anything other than the facts given only serves to over complicate it.

"Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist who could not fit into a niche of their society.

Now let me modify this a bit to exhibit the point that has clearly flown over your head:

"Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist (BLU) who could not fit into a niche of their society (Duty finder).

If you think about this in anything more than the context given, then I can't be faulted if you simply don't get it.

The use of this idiom that you presented is a modern take from people that were simply ignorant of its true meaning and butchered it up.

Who's butchering up an idiom when they start talking about, "OH! but a square peg CAN fit if it's smaller than the round hole"? It's some real SJW agenda type mentalities that actually take something and redefine it to serve their agenda.

[Reynhart]

I really don't get what this was supposed to prove?

What that proves is that you know nothing about how past BLU worked in each game...and that your claim of "your team had to have a high level to encounter a monster" is a pure nonsense.
Seriously, at that point, I'm really starting to wonder if you even played past games.

[BubblyBoar]

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did. It's new party playstyle, whatever that may be, becomes the new identity and what differentiates it from other casters. That new identity will have to fall within a specific range of power that is similar to all the other casters. Where learning monster skills is completely moot because power wise, its no different than any other class. So the gimmick is only novel in as far as the method of getting your skills, but not in application. The skill application is no different than any other casters in that regards. Instead of getting skills from an NPC every 5 or 2 levels, you just go grab them from a monster with a bit of RNG. But it would ultimately end up being just another caster.

See, this is where I get confused. It is not BLU's identity to be OP. It is not BLU's identity to have 40+ skills to pick from with some completely breaking the game. And it is not BLU's identity to be a solo class. That was neverBLU's identity.


BLU's only identity is learning and using monster skills, full stop. Nothing else. Those skills can be balanced for the job's hands and have been in many of the games. There's nothing wrong with FFXIV doing it as well. Please stop adding all these other factors to BLU's identity and then claim that balancing the job will ruin it.

[MrKimper]

What that proves is that you know nothing about how past BLU worked in each game...and that your claim of "your team had to have a high level to encounter a monster" is a pure nonsense.
Seriously, at that point, I'm really starting to wonder if you even played past games.

You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL, just because you have someone using a LVL 1 challenge/strat does not equate to how someone would NORMALLY go about acquiring BLU skills. You've proven literally nothing besides the point that it's possible to enter higher level story locked areas with low level jobs, which I wasn't disputing I was disputing that there was no hard level cap restricting a BLU from learning skills.

This isn't even taking into account Monster skills that require a beastmaster to force the use of a skill.

So no, I still really don't get what this was supposed to prove.

[Reynhart]

You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL

Sure, how come a low level 1 character could survive a spell that cut its HP by half ? How would a low level character with gear that absorbs Fire would survive Flame Thrower ? How would a low level character wearing a Ribbon would survive Bad Breath ?
But I have a better question, why do you care about surviving when surviving the hit is not a requirement in FFV or VI ? Why do you care about surviving when you don't learn skills by being hit by them in FF VIII, IX, and X ?

[JohnSpawnVFX]

You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL, just because you have someone using a LVL 1 challenge/strat does not equate to how someone would NORMALLY go about acquiring BLU skills. You've proven literally nothing besides the point that it's possible to enter higher level story locked areas with low level jobs, which I wasn't disputing I was disputing that there was no hard level cap restricting a BLU from learning skills.

This isn't even taking into account Monster skills that require a beastmaster to force the use of a skill.

So no, I still really don't get what this was supposed to prove.

It's supposed to prove that you're wrong and that there isn't a hard level cap restriciting a BLU from learning skills.

At the very worst, you can claim monster level is a soft level cap restriciting a BLU from learning skills, in which monster might be too strong to let BLU learn their skill. But most soft caps can always be overcome with tricks and techniques.

A hard level cap would be: despite anything you do, game won't allow you to learn a skill if your level is too low (learning fails and game displays a message "your level is too low for this skill")

[kikix12]

OMG, what? Are you also the type of person to deny facts such as evolution, human influenced climate change, and the Earth being round?

No, partially (humans affect climate, but climate changes naturally to a far greater degree), no.

There's no universal "one size fits all".

Several times now you come here challenging my statements saying I don't know what I'm talking about when all evidence shows the opposite.

I think you have a very severe memory issue.

In all my life I did respond to you directly three times going by post search. This one, one time in a thread over two months ago (and did mention you another time there, but didn't respond to you) and twelve and a half months ago. Once I argued your use of the word antiquated, once discussed a button bloat topic.

On the other hand, what evidence shows the opposite?! Again, the very people that "don't fit society" still exist within it in some form. How then, tell me, does that apply to Blue Mage that have no access to Duty Finder at all?

That being said, again, Blue Mage cannot be used in Duty Finder, but it is possible to make it usable without actually changing anything outside of it.

There's no variable here explaining how large or small the peg is. If you've ever done a logic puzzle, or any kind of conclusive reasoning you would know that thinking about anything other than the facts given only serves to over complicate it.

That's the problem here. You are the one adding to the facts.

"Square peg in a round hole" is the idiom, right?! Where, do tell, does it say that it doesn't fit?! I see that it is IN the hole. It is a fundamental difference, because your 'doesn't fit' is at best implied, at worst just an overactive imagination. Or do you need me to bring in the definition of 'in' to you now?!

Who's butchering up an idiom when they start talking about, "OH! but a square peg CAN fit if it's smaller than the round hole"?

Well...the one that's giving it different meanings, of course. Language is ever-changing, but idioms are idioms for a reason. Idioms shouldn't change, otherwise they stop being idioms and become personal sayings at most. The part about fitting in does not exist in the idiom. The idiom only talks about the peg that's a different geometrical shape than a hole, being in it. Which means that it simply does not match it properly. There is nowhere in sight, neither in the idiom itself nor in its original meaning, anything implying that it's meant to mean that you cannot put a square peg in a round hole. At all.

[Beckett]

the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI.

Even though you've been going back and forth with MrKimper for days, I feel like you just glossed over the most important part right away. One of the only things we know about FFXIV's Blue Mage is that it's far more similar to XI's BLU than any other game. XI is the only game besides XIV to give Blue Mages over 30 blue magic spells, but only allow them access a few at a time.

Given how hard they seem to aping XI's style of BLU, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that blue magic will be level restricted in this game as well. If the job comes out and it turns out a level 1 BLU can go into Akh Afah Ampitheatre, and learn Shiva's bow ability and is able to use it at level 1, I'll be eating crow, but I seriously doubt that's going to be the case.

[kikix12]

Given how hard they seem to aping XI's style of BLU, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that blue magic will be level restricted in this game as well. If the job comes out and it turns out a level 1 BLU can go into Akh Afah Ampitheatre, and learn Shiva's bow ability and is able to use it at level 1, I'll be eating crow, but I seriously doubt that's going to be the case.

Blue Mage won't be able to enter instances of a higher level than they are, no different to other classes. But that does not mean that skills will be gated behind levels. The question is whether they will be able to learn them from the mobs that they have access to.

That being said...does it really matter?! It's not even relevant to the topic. There are other threads about Blue Mage that talk about its mechanics.

[Beckett]

There is nowhere in sight, neither in the idiom itself nor in its original meaning, anything implying that it's meant to mean that you cannot put a square peg in a round hole. At all.

The full idiom is literally, "You can't fit a square peg in a round hole."

I definitely disagree with calling a BLU a square peg that can't fit into the round hole of XIV's group content, but I'm sorry, you're just straight up wrong about the meaning of the phrase.