A question for the BLU peeps

[MrKimper]

So you're just going to ignore every proof like "Quina can learn any spell at level 1", "Khimari can Lancet any target without ever moving on the sphere grid", "Quistis can use any dropped item at her starting level", "A lvl0 Blue Mage could use any spell learn by someone else in FFV" ?

Yes because those would still quite literally require you to have a team that is a high enough level to get to that point in the game to encounter the monster, you constantly stating that as being some ironclad reason why BLU CAN'T fit into XIV's system because of--skill progression of all things. Is ridiculous.

Historically jobs have had their OWN POINT SYSTEM which is how they were leveled, and subsequently learned skills. Separate from your main level, on top of that SMN and BLM, WHM and RDM, obtained spells through purchasing them through shops, or in the case of SMN through defeating bosss's and obtaining items.

Wow that seems drastically different than how they obtain them in this game.

[frankenbeans]

I have been waiting patiently and wanting to main BLU for years. My excitement for the new expansion is virtually zero at this point. My question is why is BLU all of the sudden this sacred cow and it must be implemented exactly like it was in FFXI? Practically every job has been changed to fit into the MMORPG dynamic and the vast majority of people have no problems with them. I hope, at the very least, BLU will eventually be able to be a full fledged job in the future.

[Reynhart]

Yes because those would still quite literally require you to have a team that is a high enough level to get to that point in the game to encounter the monster

No
it
does
not
at
all

You know you're supposed to do some research before claiming how historically something works in the franchise...

Historically jobs have had their OWN POINT SYSTEM which is how they were leveled, and subsequently learned skills. Separate from your main level, on top of that SMN and BLM, WHM and RDM, obtained spells through purchasing them through shops

And they still couldn't use those spells without reaching a specific level in the job while Blue could...

At some point, you might want to stop digging...

[Melichoir]

The issue boils down to a few things that people arent actually giving any thought to. They are:

1) All classes are balanced in relation to one another. Every single one. There is no exception to this.
2) This means that all player skills, broadly speaking, are limited to a certain scope of potential. Whether that is damage output, Status, Range/Size, resource cost, etc. There may be some variance between teh skills, but they still fit within a certain "range".
3) All classes, as a result, must be within range of each other power wise. While you could have differences in power output, those differences will only show up broadly at the highest level of play under certain conditions. Even then, the differences in power are not so drastic that one class is inherently a must pick when it comes to balance proper.

Because of these 3 factors, the defining differences between classes is NOT the skills in of themselves,because when you boil the skills down to their very core, theyre all within relative range of power to one another, but the play styles of the classes themselves. Plenty of you have pointed this out. As an example, Unleash and Overpower are relatively similar. The difference is slight in power and aoe shape when you boil both down, but both skills are comparable. One may be slightly superior, but that doesnt mean that DRK is by far better than WAR. They have ups and downs in certain regards.

To help illustrate this point, imagine every skill is broken into a 30 point system that can be divided up into 3 categories: Damage, Utility, Range.

Lets say:

Monk Skill A has a breakdown of D:15, U:0, R:15.

Dragoon skill A has a breakdown of D:20, U:5, R:5.

While both skills are not identical, their maximum values overall is the same. The power is just distributed differently, but theyre balanced in relation to one another. Neither skill exceeds 30 points of overall power. Monks skill might be better than DRGs, depending the situation, but neither has a skill that is so drastically superior that it is better in all situations by a noticeable margin.

Because of this balancing breakdown, play style affects really how much bang you get in the end. Thats what really separates the classes. Some classes may lean towards more utility than DPS, or more range than Utility, or whatever you want, but theyre all viable. Those playstyles become the identity of the class.

NOW, how does BLU fit into this?

The trouble with BLU is that their skills arent designed for PC use initially. BLU skills dont come from NPCs with players in mind. They come from Monsters who are designed to kill player groups. What this means is that Monster Skills do not fall within the scope of the normal limitations of player skills. So in my hypothetical example above, player skills may fall within a range of 30 points, but monster skills may fall in a range of 90 Points by comparison since it is designed to kill groups of players. This discrepancy lies at the heart of BLU. It would be impossible to balance the game if BLU learned monster skills as is and those skills werent re-balanced to other classes. They would be flat out OP in all content.

Everyone who's a proponent of making BLU part of the usual roster all seem to agree on that factor, and do not mind re-balancing. This is where the disconnect happens.

The playstyle of a class that has such high powered skills and can solo content is vastly different than one that cannot. In the case of the Former, the playstyle would not likely revolve around rotations, priority systems, or resource management as every other class does. Instead it would rely more heavily on picking the right skill for the right situation. The playstyle is more meta rather than more reflexive. It takes a different player skill set to think about how to handle a situation vs learning and memorizing rotations. This is supported by the fact that there is no "hard" skill path. You can learn any skill at any time (supposedly) unlike other classes, so having a larger more expanded kit to pick and choose how to handle content. Also, since you can learn anything at any time, the likely hood of rotation systems or priority systems is severely limited.

However, if you dumb the skills down, youre no longer in the situation where you can solo content and now are more geared for party play. This means the aforementioned system of picking skills for the situation gets thrown out. Instead, they would need to implement a new playstyle. One that is either rotation/priority or resource management based. This then becomes the defining identity and factor of the class. When this happens, it becomes just like every other class in that regards. You end up homogenizing it in efforts to balance it. The whole idea of learning monster skills also becomes moot because at that point, as learning skills from monsters is just a harder method of getting skills compared to other classes with no better yield because the skills have to be balanced to be as powerful as any other class. Because skill acquisition is RNG, not done in any order, and actually by-passable, this complicates how to balance the class at lower levels, unless you mandate that they need to acquire certain skills, which means it becomes just like any other class, except hard to get skills again.

The initial identity of BLU revolves around using MONSTER skills with a playstyle that fits into that theme. HOWEVER, after nerfing things, the identity of BLU switches to whatever the new Playstyle they generate where acquiring skills from monsters is just a side objective. In this regard, BLU loses its unique identity and becomes "just another caster class" with skills that are no better or worse than any other caster broadly. This is what is meant by "Re-skin", or by saying "You just want a caster thats BLU in name only."

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did. It's new party playstyle, whatever that may be, becomes the new identity and what differentiates it from other casters. That new identity will have to fall within a specific range of power that is similar to all the other casters. Where learning monster skills is completely moot because power wise, its no different than any other class. So the gimmick is only novel in as far as the method of getting your skills, but not in application. The skill application is no different than any other casters in that regards. Instead of getting skills from an NPC every 5 or 2 levels, you just go grab them from a monster with a bit of RNG. But it would ultimately end up being just another caster.

It wont be BLU anymore, at least no in spirit. It just becomes a caster with a new rotation/priority/resource management system that has a harder time acquiring its skills compared to other casters. Thats what it boils down to. So when people say things like "Make it work no matter what," those people are sidelining the core aspect of a BLU mage. This really then is just saying "All I really wanted was a new caster class thats called BLU mage."

[Beckett]

First off, jobs are content.

Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

Anyone want to take a stab at that? Someone?

If this post were made circa 2015, it would read:

"How could Red Mage be made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make RDM compatible with PF but still keep their equal balance of healing, casting and melee DPS."

It wont be BLU anymore, at least no in spirit. It just becomes a caster with a new rotation/priority/resource management system that has a harder time acquiring its skills compared to other casters. Thats what it boils down to. So when people say things like "Make it work no matter what," those people are sidelining the core aspect of a BLU mage. This really then is just saying "All I really wanted was a new caster class thats called BLU mage."

And today you could easily say that Red Mage in FFXIV is not RDM, at least not in spirit. You would almost universally be called foolish, but you could say it, and in the truest most technical sense, you would still be correct. XIV's Red Mage does not have the classic jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none style that Red Mage is known for, but that doesn't matter because the job is still fun. And despite being forced to conform to the confines of XIV's systems, very few people would argue that it doesn't still feel like playing a Red Mage. There is no reason to assume that the same thing couldn't have been done with Blue Mage.

I absolutely understand the excitement for the new type of content that Limited Blue Mage will bring, and the fatigue of getting new jobs that need to fit into the same set roles. Those are perfectly valid opinions to have. But the claim that Blue Mage could never have been implemented as a standard job while still keeping its identity is, at the very least, misguided.

[Reinha]

However, if you dumb the skills down, youre no longer in the situation where you can solo content and now are more geared for party play. This means the aforementioned system of picking skills for the situation gets thrown out. Instead, they would need to implement a new playstyle. One that is either rotation/priority or resource management based. This then becomes the defining identity and factor of the class. When this happens, it becomes just like every other class in that regards. You end up homogenizing it in efforts to balance it. The whole idea of learning monster skills also becomes moot because at that point, as learning skills from monsters is just a harder method of getting skills compared to other classes with no better yield because the skills have to be balanced to be as powerful as any other class. Because skill acquisition is RNG, not done in any order, and actually by-passable, this complicates how to balance the class at lower levels, unless you mandate that they need to acquire certain skills, which means it becomes just like any other class, except hard to get skills again.

The initial identity of BLU revolves around using MONSTER skills with a playstyle that fits into that theme. HOWEVER, after nerfing things, the identity of BLU switches to whatever the new Playstyle they generate where acquiring skills from monsters is just a side objective. In this regard, BLU loses its unique identity and becomes "just another caster class" with skills that are no better or worse than any other caster broadly. This is what is meant by "Re-skin", or by saying "You just want a caster thats BLU in name only."

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did.

Regarding the situational playstyle versus the usual dps rotation, I think the Perform system which was made for BRD would be great for BLU. Activate "Solo Mode" and a new set of action bars pop up, and they include a selection of monster skills you are supposed to use outdoors and in the Carnival (what has been developed for the job so far). The skills you can put on these action bars come from a separate list of skills you learn from monsters through RNG, will never be balanced, are easy to implement because of that, and cannot be used against enemies higher than level 50 or in instances except the Carnival.

Another set of skills could be learned through job quests up to level 70, which would enable BLU to be a real job that can do every piece of content this game has to offer. These job quests could be ignored by anyone who does not like the play style, and this would prevent the player from entering any content BLU is currently planned to be banned from.

Additionally, nerfing dps does not have to mean loss of skill potency. It can also be done by increasing the casting time or cooldown of skills. It would be possible to have massive nukes in the party-oriented rotation learned from job quests. A slow casting mage or a mage weaving several mid-length or long cooldowns in their base rotation would both be a totally new kind of mage play style, which shows that BLU doesn't have to be a copy of other mages.

[Asheilin]

Option D: Leave it as is AND usable in all Content

There are plenty of ways showcased in other FF games to make BLU in GROUP CONTENT POSSIBLE. not least of which ffxi which everything was group content.

The Level 5 Death example in the PLL while true if it was how it worked 99% of Blue Mage KO skills either did a good chunk of damage to a boss or boss was immune to it. This is Cannologically Lore to the series. Why restrict it? Does Stun work on all bosses? Sleep? Knockbacks? Of course not.

There is also the well if they dont get their skills they're useless/unprepared.... Make a system check (Does Blu have X set skills, yes? Can queue Y dungeons and lower) This would be a check just like "Are you a battle Class?" or "Are you level? "Is your Ilvl High enough"
Could also use the Masked Carnivale to be a prereq for 8man content. A Quest marker (ie the way you can't run 8m Raids until you've completed X MSQ) Before you start screaming that it's solo gameplay, I know. The purpose would be Win 3 sets ( or how many) of Carnivale. This would then Unlock 8man+ content because you showed sufficient proficiency of Blu Mastery to run content.

I'm sure there will be achievements for Skills Unlocked. Could make one, ie 30, unlock roulettes.

[Gemina]

Option D: Leave it as is AND usable in all Content

Popular idiom

You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Sorry.

[MrKimper]

No
it
does
not
at
all

You know you're supposed to do some research before claiming how historically something works in the franchise...

And they still couldn't use those spells without reaching a specific level in the job while Blue could...

At some point, you might want to stop digging...

Samurai

Samurai

Bard

Samurai

Now show me them learning a skill with a BLU in that team. All I'm getting from your post is that, there are certain strategies in SINGLE PLAYER final fantasy games that are incredibly abusable. I really don't get what this was supposed to prove?

[kikix12]

Popular idiom

You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Sorry.

I think you didn't even read the article you linked. Not only did you use the wrong idiom, but you are also entirely incorrect.

You can fit a square peg in a round hole, and a round peg in a square hole. The peg simply needs to be small enough. It will not fit perfectly though, leaving spots "free". That is why it is an idiom about society. People not suited to some sort of society due to cultural, ideological or religious reasons still can (and do) live in it, but they never really "fit in" properly.
The use of this idiom that you presented is a modern take from people that were simply ignorant of its true meaning and butchered it up.

In terms of Blue Mage however that does not apply, due to pretty much all people understanding that Blue Mage cannot be allowed in Duty Finder with the ridiculously overpowered skills. The difference in opinion is on whether they should be removed/balanced or left.

But that leaves the option of there being perfectly balanced builds with developers forcing them in the content that requires that balance. Think about it like a moldable clay peg in any hole. It'll just fit right in whichever it's pushed into.