Please Stop saying Nerf ___

[Lyth]

What? No.

Do you remember what happened to the other 100% uptime buffs? INT down? STR down? Damage down? The buffs which forced you to bring one of two jobs into your raid group? They just disappeared. Slashing and Piercing are every bit as mandatory. I suspect that the only reason they're kicking around is because somebody couldn't be bothered to recalculate what all the potencies should have been without them. Just cut them out of the game entirely. You don't need a replacement.

It's also an incredibly bad system if you have jobs with hybrid damage types. Some attacks benefit because they're "slashing". Others don't because they're "magic". You run into scenarios in which certain abilities only provide a dps benefit when slashing isn't available.

I'm not sure why you want to give all these jobs a replacement Trick Attack, though. Several of these jobs will still be meta picks even without bringing Slashing or Piercing. You don't need another reason to shoehorn them in.

Regarding raises - if your healers were providing all the raises, that would be one thing, but more often than not you have at least one other player capable of providing it with a lower downside in prog. Point is, while there are some limits, the game gives us a lot of "Extra Lives" that lets us see through to the next mechanic, and I think we'd benefit from tighter restrictions on that.

What I'd like to see, at least for non-healer jobs, is some sort of limit. Either a "Number of uses: 3/3" indicator like Logos actions have, or some sort of long recast. Or even give the party a cumulative maximum number of raises per fight.

I understand the impact on Red Mages, but I think that you would have to expand out their identity in other directions to compensate at the same time that you implemented such a change. I'd really like to see them bring more to the table. They need to be more than just "Rez Mages".

The recurring theme here is that jobs get various advantages, some of which make them mandatory picks. Players then jealously guard these features, and become paranoid about nerfs, even if removing them would improve gameplay for everyone. It's shortsighted. The goal should be to have more fun gameplay, not to force yourself into groups that wouldn't otherwise want you.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

If the situation to everything was to just "git gud" then SE wouldn't have ever touched jobs since SB.

Despite what you want to believe, job imbalance is a thing, and it's running rampant with healers right now. SCH and AST are just powerhouses while WHM is this weird job that can heal content fine, but is not as efficient as either healer and can offer nothing else beyond said healing.
It's actually baffling that SE would leave WHM in this state for this long. Then again, it's not like this hasn't happened before..

[Seraphor]

What would happen to WAR, SAM or NIN combos if they 'just removed' Slashing debuffs?
Their entire alternate combo exists in order to apply that slashing debuff.
Without it, SAM has an inert weaponskill that doesn't do anything while their other two both have an additional effect, NIN is just applying a weak DoT and WAR is just dealing less damage to recover a bit of HP.
What about applying layers of damage up buffs is so unfun exactly? To recalculate potencies around remove these debuffs would result in a flatter damage gradient and a less impressive burst window.
What's next after we lose damage type debuffs that also imbalances classes?
May as well just give every class one flat weaponskill with 200 flat potency and everyone just hits that one button til the enemy is dead.

[Satarn]

What would happen to WAR, SAM or NIN combos if they 'just removed' Slashing debuffs?
Their entire alternate combo exists in order to apply that slashing debuff.
Without it, SAM has an inert weaponskill that doesn't do anything while their other two both have an additional effect, NIN is just applying a weak DoT and WAR is just dealing less damage to recover a bit of HP.
What about applying layers of damage up buffs is so unfun exactly? To recalculate potencies around remove these debuffs would result in a flatter damage gradient and a less impressive burst window.
What's next after we lose damage type debuffs that also imbalances classes?
May as well just give every class one flat weaponskill with 200 flat potency and everyone just hits that one button til the enemy is dead.

I see somebody hasn't updated their info since HW.
WAR's slashing debuff is on the second step of both their buff combo(Storm's Eye) and their dps combo(Storm's Path - it's not just "a bit of HP", it's extra 10 Beast Gauge which is better than higher potency on Butcher's). They will keep using that step no matter what, just to reach the 2 finishers.
If NIN's Shadow Fang DoT was so weak, then people wouldn't apply it with a SAM/WAR in party, but they most certainly do and would keep doing so if you removed slashing.
SAM's Yukikaze is the only way to apply the Setsu sen, so again - they need it regardless of slashing.

The only combo debuff that would change it's job rotation if removed is MNK's blunt, due to how flexible their combos are. It's also the only permanent debuff that doesn't affect any other job however and therefore there's no issue with keeping it for the sake of rotational complexity.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What would happen to WAR, SAM or NIN combos if they 'just removed' Slashing debuffs?
Their entire alternate combo exists in order to apply that slashing debuff.
Without it, SAM has an inert weaponskill that doesn't do anything while their other two both have an additional effect, NIN is just applying a weak DoT and WAR is just dealing less damage to recover a bit of HP.
What about applying layers of damage up buffs is so unfun exactly? To recalculate potencies around remove these debuffs would result in a flatter damage gradient and a less impressive burst window.
What's next after we lose damage type debuffs that also imbalances classes?
May as well just give every class one flat weaponskill with 200 flat potency and everyone just hits that one button til the enemy is dead.

Um... Shadow Fang is NIN's strongest GCD attack. It does a total of 480 potency whereas Aeolian Edge only does 340. Satarn covered everything else. Really... I have no idea what you're even arguing here because little of it makes any sense. How does Piercing or Slashing play into burst phases? There is literally zero scenario where those buffs aren't applied unless the jobs are absent. All these debuffs do is force comps. Most Bards want nothing to do with groups who don't have a Dragoon. Which is one of the contributing factors to Dragoon dominating the current meta. Re-balancing the potencies of Dragoon, Bard and Machinist to accommodate a lack of piercing changes nothing in regards to their gameplay. It simply makes Dragoon less mandatory.

[Shurrikhan]

Um... Shadow Fang is NIN's strongest GCD attack. It does a total of 480 potency whereas Aeolian Edge only does 340. Satarn covered everything else. Really... I have no idea what you're even arguing here because little of it makes any sense. How does Piercing or Slashing play into burst phases? There is literally zero scenario where those buffs aren't applied unless the jobs are absent. All these debuffs do is force comps. Most Bards want nothing to do with groups who don't have a Dragoon. Which is one of the contributing factors to Dragoon dominating the current meta. Re-balancing the potencies of Dragoon, Bard and Machinist to accommodate a lack of piercing changes nothing in regards to their gameplay. It simply makes Dragoon less mandatory.

Personally, I rather like ensuring that the person who loses the least to apply a debuff is able to apply it before anyone else stands to lose further damage from the lack of it. It's not much of a gameplay augmentation, but it's something. The issue with Warrior's (previously unique) access to Slashing was mitigated, if not outright nullified, by adding Ninja and then further mitigated with Samurai. Why not simply do the same with the piercing classes?

NIN is the most compositionally versatile (and central) DPS in the game, while MCH and BRD would functionally complete if not for the sheer damage of meta-comp DRG-NIN-MCH-BRD, so it stands to reason that if either BRD and MCH gets a piercing debuff then both must receive it, with that change probably being preferable over RDM simply becoming a substitute DRG, but either (or both) would actually work fine.

This makes Piercing entirely redundant. [1] What purpose does it serve if Heavy Shot applies it? Bards always spam Heavy Shot, thus they will never be without piercing. And therein lies the issue with these debuffs to begin with. They aren't interesting. [2] As a DRG, I very seldom think about piercing because there are exceptionally few scenarios where I won't do a Chaos Thrust combo. [3] In fact, the only times I have to consider it this entire expansion is in M/F and UwU due to switching targets or jumping bosses. [4] Like Lyth said, I suspect they just couldn't be bothered to recalculate potencies, though the devs have mentioned they liked this supposed synergy. Alas, there isn't any job synergy. There is one comp which has dominated since Creator.

[5]Regardless, if they were to simply slap Piercing on BRD/MCH, then DRG needs a buff as it effectively lost 400 rDPS which immediately kills it.

[1] Even taking a spitball example as exact, unless Heavy Shot also always crits... yes, eventually they will have Piercing, but it won't be as early as third GCD.

And what specifically is wrong with it being redundant? Of all actions we take in this game, all but the narrow margin of job-unique utilities we take in this game are functional redundancies.

Nor is its gameplay augmentation, however slight or situational, redundant with anything else. No one asks "can you shield this or should I?" because we never take two shield healers. But that's what debuff redundancy does. Two GCDs away, I look at my Warrior's buffs and/or swing animation and figure whether I need to rush out a Yukikaze or can continue setting up for a perfect Meikyo 40 seconds future.

That would still exist if every Slashing class had access to a Slashing debuff -- if, say, Savage Strike applied it and Paladin was uniquely able to apply Royal Authority from either Savage or Riot, or Scourge/Minus Strike was returned/given to Dark Knight as shift-skills for Blood Weapon and Blood Pact respectively and those happened to apply it.

[2] That is an issue of intra-class balance and largely owes itself to shortsighted broad strokes changes like what you're suggesting. Why were so few rotational breakpoints possible for HW DRG relative to ARR? Because they overpowered Phelobotomize noticeably and Chaos Thrust slightly compared to the rest of the rotation. Why is the rotation so inflexible now? Because of the additional potency being placed in Lance Mastery II rather than being spread more evenly or without adding a tool by which to migrate or trim F&C/WT, the appliers of that bonus damage. The same can be said for Shadow Fang now, or Yukikaze (its combo of greatly lower ppgcd than Kasha or Gekko), and why Warrior is considered the only reliable applier of Slashing.

[3] So, rather than encouraging fights to see a breath of fresh air away from striking dummy uptime, we should just scrap anything that causes just a bit of consideration? You make it sound like none is more than some. It's not. Unless you're going to recommend a replacement, that logic is fallacious at best. If its costs are removed, you are left with simply a small bonus. It is still something. That it could be more does make it actually less until that something more could actually replace it and is being twarted by its presence. Show me the something better that is being blocked, and then I'll be right behind you. Not before. "You've only got a measely dollar there, so why not just burn it?" isn't compelling until my wallet could fit something else in turn.

[4] They had no trouble just quickly tabling out the rounded values from shifting a third of Heavy Thrust's benefit onto base potencies... Take the individual skills and their totals. Round individual skills. Note the previous trends of intraclass balance and use the excuse to nudge them back in place according to the rounding while maintaining the total rotational adjustment and, roughly, uptime dependence. Any of us could do that for every job within the hour. I seriously doubt that's the reason.

[5] Yes, that would be necessary either way. And I'd greatly prefer that; despite its burst, DRG average pDPS is kind of laughable.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Personally, I rather like ensuring that the person who loses the least to apply a debuff is able to apply it before anyone else stands to lose further damage from the lack of it. It's not much of a gameplay augmentation, but it's something. The issue with Warrior's (previously unique) access to Slashing was mitigated, if not outright nullified, by adding Ninja and then further mitigated with Samurai. Why not simply do the same with the piercing classes?

NIN is the most compositionally versatile (and central) DPS in the game, while MCH and BRD would functionally complete if not for the sheer damage of meta-comp DRG-NIN-MCH-BRD, so it stands to reason that if either BRD and MCH gets a piercing debuff then both must receive it, with that change probably being preferable over RDM simply becoming a substitute DRG, but either (or both) would actually work fine.

Except when we have split boss fights like M/F. If your group happens to run DRG/MNK, Slashing is no longer being applied for DRK/PLD and they simply suffer for no discernible reason. The whole complaint because have with these debuffs is how uninteresting they are. The fact Slashing is generally don't issue only highlights the sheer pointlessness. It's either 100% up without a second thought put into the application or you have a boss design which completely screws over certain comps.

And none of this addresses the glaring issue DRG loses 400~ rDPS if they simply give Piercing to BRD/MCH. Therefore, potencies will have to be buffed regardless. They may as well eliminate all these debuffs to begin with.

[1] Even taking a spitball example as exact, unless Heavy Shot also always crits... yes, eventually they will have Piercing, but it won't be as early as third GCD.

And what specifically is wrong with it being redundant? Of all actions we take in this game, all but the narrow margin of job-unique utilities we take in this game are functional redundancies.

Nor is its gameplay augmentation, however slight or situational, redundant with anything else. No one asks "can you shield this or should I?" because we never take two shield healers. But that's what debuff redundancy does. Two GCDs away, I look at my Warrior's buffs and/or swing animation and figure whether I need to rush out a Yukikaze or can continue setting up for a perfect Meikyo 40 seconds future.

That would still exist if every Slashing class had access to a Slashing debuff -- if, say, Savage Strike applied it and Paladin was uniquely able to apply Royal Authority from either Savage or Riot, or Scourge/Minus Strike was returned/given to Dark Knight as shift-skills for Blood Weapon and Blood Pact respectively and those happened to apply it.

And?

Unless you're insinuating Heavy Shot needs to crit to apply piercing, it will eventually be put on the boss and never fall off. If it were crit dependent, we're back to needlessly punishing two jobs when no others have this issue. All to maintain an otherwise thoughtless debuff that demands precisely zero player input. Your SAM example is not only decidedly rare, but requires the WAR to mess up their combos. If they're allowing Storm's Eye to fall off, they have done something wrong. You shouldn't be timing a Yukikaze because the scenario you've described shouldn't happen.

[3] So, rather than encouraging fights to see a breath of fresh air away from striking dummy uptime, we should just scrap anything that causes just a bit of consideration? You make it sound like none is more than some. It's not. Unless you're going to recommend a replacement, that logic is fallacious at best. If its costs are removed, you are left with simply a small bonus. It is still something. That it could be more does make it actually less until that something more could actually replace it and is being twarted by its presence. Show me the something better that is being blocked, and then I'll be right behind you. Not before. "You've only got a measely dollar there, so why not just burn it?" isn't compelling until my wallet could fit something else in turn.

Except it isn't a breath of fresh air. It's an annoyance for the jobs who potentially lose out. As a DRG, I simply don't think about Piercing 99% of the time because my combos mandatory its application. With regards to the fights I mentioned, I don't even necessarily re-apply piercing right away when I switch from Omega-M to F because it would mess up my rotation. And in Ultimate, the only consideration Piercing gets is realizing I have to stop attacking Garuda, Ifrit or Titan after Impulse Drive if I suspect they'll jump within the next second or two. Why? The game doesn't register debuffs immediately. Thus, you can hit the boss and actually deal damage but because they jumped a second later, Piercing won't apply. None of this is thought provoking or interesting.

And if we follow your suggestion of simply slapping Piercing on BRD/MCH, then we're back to not thinking about its application whatsoever. Which runs contrary to your "breath of fresh air" argument.

[4] They had no trouble just quickly tabling out the rounded values from shifting a third of Heavy Thrust's benefit onto base potencies... Take the individual skills and their totals. Round individual skills. Note the previous trends of intraclass balance and use the excuse to nudge them back in place according to the rounding while maintaining the total rotational adjustment and, roughly, uptime dependence. Any of us could do that for every job within the hour. I seriously doubt that's the reason.

The actual reasons are twofold. They believed it encouraged job synergy when all it really accomplished is locking DRG into virtually every static composition. Secondly, the devs openly acknowledged they didn't balance BRD/MCH with piercing in mind. Yoshida's infamous "Piercing would make BRD/MCH OP!!!" response attests to that. Basically, they flat out didn't realize how big an impact piercing actually had. Hence why in a more recent Q&A, they have since changed their stance about it.

[kobe-sabi]

they could of fix WHM/MCH/DRK a long time ago but the team seemed busy on a secret project "Bluemage" something they thought people would welcome with open arms. well 5.0 is just over the hill, lets hope they dont make DRK/MCH/WHM OP like alot will say if they bring the heat. I dont get it, its always a tug of war with job balances will we ever see a perfect median or will we have to wait till LVL99.

[NocturniaUzuki]

I have to agree for the most part, to be honest, even if your rhetoric is a bit on the aggressive side.

Games are never perfectly balanced, and it's silly to try. Look at something like League of Legends. That game is balanced around minutae based around what jobs do well in the hands of pro gamers at tournaments. People are doing the same thing here. God forbid the numbers are perfectly aligned. I mean, if they were, every job would be absolutely the same in all ways to the point that people would complain about there being no individuality.

As a few people have said here, the issue is that individuality, and it's.more about how the class feels to play. As long as nothing becomes easy to the point of being trivial, or hard to the point of impossibility, there's not really an issue. The class should play smoothly, but even that is arguable, since "smooth" gameplay often translates as DPS buffs for most people, regardless of whether such a change damages the individuality of a job. People only see things in terms of DPS numbers most of the time, and that mindset's potential to damage job individuality and usefulness is what worries me - not whether or not it's marginally easier or harder to clear the most recent 8 duties (out of 200+ in the game).