Drk: worst designed class

[Exiled_Tonberry]

PLD/WAR and WHM/SCH were designed in ARR around these being the only tanks and only healers.

The end result over the past two expansions is that we've seen PLD and DRK trade-off with each other based on who is the better PLD, and WHM and AST trade-off with each other based on who is the better WHM. .

This right here. It's why I dread a 4th healer so much. Everyone's all over the place and can do everything already. They should have done something back in HW really, the fact that the only thing they could make work was making the new tank and healer a hybrid of the existing ones should have been a red flag by itself. Now we're stuck in a situation where WHM is a AST without cards and there's no real way to fix this as their core way of healing is, quite literally, from WHM.

[Seraphor]

This right here. It's why I dread a 4th healer so much. Everyone's all over the place and can do everything already. They should have done something back in HW really, the fact that the only thing they could make work was making the new tank and healer a hybrid of the existing ones should have been a red flag by itself. Now we're stuck in a situation where WHM is a AST without cards and there's no real way to fix this as their core way of healing is, quite literally, from WHM.

This wouldnt be a problem if WHM had a significant signature itself beyond simply slightly reducing cooldowns, sometimes.
If Dancer, or whatever becomes the 4th healer, has a SCH-like base but with dances instead of a pet, then whats the problem? And that's the worst case scenario, it could end up being unique, they did well with RDM and SAM after all.

Actually no, worst case would be another WHM clone...

[Lyth]

I don't think that it's all that hard.

Tanks need to mitigate. Healers need to heal. These are essential actions that you see in every job across a given role. These aren't going to be the basis of an identity, because everyone is going to be able to do them at some baseline level of competency in order to clear content (this is also why viability discussions are pointless). So talking about a "defensive tank" identity or a "pure healer" identity doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Take SCH for a second. You have a pet who can help you multitask and do things for you, be it focus healing an ally, throwing out raidwide regens, and even buffing the group. If you manage your pet well, you can buy yourself time to dps without having to hardcast heals. That's a pretty neat identity.

Take SCH for a second. You have this Aetherflow resource that you can store up to access a variety of instant cast abilities, be it burst healing, raidwide shields, or even dps. If you manage Aetherflow well, you can buy yourself time to dps without having to hardcast heals. That's a pretty neat identity.

Take SCH for a second. You have access to a variety of powerful barrier shields absorb a flat amount of damage before they expire. They don't decay in potency over time, so if you have a lot of shields up and running on the group, you can buy yourself time to dps without having to hardcast heals. That's a pretty neat- you get the point. You can do this with WAR as well.

There's no reason to throw your hands in the air and say "Golly gee, we just can't come up with healer concepts," when you have five different healer identities packaged into a single job. And then the devs scratch their heads over why we end up running the same comps every single expansion. Go figure.

We've been staring at the solution for about four years now. You don't need to be a genius to figure it out. I'm just hoping that the addition of a fourth tank and healer will cue the devs into realising that it's really, really dumb to create a super versatile job at the expense of three others. You're not going to win over new tanks with media tour Fell Cleave highlights alone. Failing that, I'll either be pinning my hopes on a fifth tank and healer, or another Calamity. They'll get it eventually.

[Shurrikhan]

PLD/WAR and WHM/SCH were designed in ARR around these being the only tanks and only healers. They worked because there wasn't really any significant overlap.

When the devs introduced a third tank and a third healer, they should have narrowed the existing jobs so that they didn't cover as broad an area. They didn't. DRK was introduced as something in-between PLD and WAR. AST was introduced as something in-between WHM and SCH.

The end result over the past two expansions is that we've seen PLD and DRK trade-off with each other based on who is the better PLD, and WHM and AST trade-off with each other based on who is the better WHM. WAR and SCH dabble in a lot of different areas, such that their guaranteed spots have been relatively well insulated. They're also the reason why there wasn't really room for a third tank and healer.

Healers have another layer of problems with raid buffs (Balance, Strategem). I'm glad that tanks haven't really run into this issue yet, outside of the Slashing issue. Because stacking raid buffs don't have diminishing returns, it's pretty much mandatory for your job to bring one in order to stay competitive.

I'm hoping that the addition of a fourth tank and healer will force the devs to re-evaluate tanks and healers from the ground up. There isn't room for a fourth. You have to make room. The starting point for that is to look at how broad WAR and SCH's kits have become, and give them a more narrow focus, in keeping with everyone else.

100% agree here. I just don't think Lifesteal is remotely thematically sufficient nor Anti-magic remotely balanced enough to center DRK's rehaul from. To me, Dark Knight should be the subverting tank -- the "bastard tank" -- that despite technically being somewhere between the tactics-decisive aesthetic that Paladin and the brawling Warrior, finds a way to be "down and dirty" that is entirely its own. If there were a player type for a Dark Knight, or best suited to play a Dark Knight, to my mind that should be someone deservedly a bit smug, ready to decimate an enemy over their slip up--as a matter of course, but never devoid of pleasure--always planing ahead, always building up their underlying damage potential or capitalizing upon it, with never actually a stale moment. But, that's probably just me -- what I want most from jobs is to be immersed in or drawn into a conducive mentality. Its why I love speedMonk, speedSAM, and NIN so much; it's why I already love the hell out of a Deliriumed Blood Weapon-DA-Quietus/DA-AD spam, even if it's still painfully inferior to IR-Deci spam. They introduce you to a new way of thinking about things, and tweak your perceptions and habits at least a bit. I want DRK to have a disproportionately large amount of the little things that feel huge. And that might not come with a simplifying central element tag to paste on DRK's forehead, but that's okay.

[Lyth]

The reason why AoE on DRK is enjoyable is because it fully commits itself to the theme of resource stealing, and your actions all have some degree of synergy in order to achieve this.

TBN shields you, and converts MP into blood. The blood from TBN then goes into Quietus and Delirium. Quietus, in turn steals MP, and under the influence of Blood Weapon, also generates blood. The MP that you drained can be used to generate more TBN, or can be used on AD to steal HP, or can be used to make Quietus hit harder. You steal HP, MP, and generate blood, exchanging one resource for another in an alchemical fashion as you drain your enemies dry.

Now why can't we do something like this in single target? And better yet, why did they copy over Abyssal Drain's AoE lifesteal effect on to Steel Cyclone just so that WAR has a means to outdo us here too? That's our gameplay style. Shoo.

Bloodspiller is the closest single target equivalent of Quietus. But it doesn't really have a soul of its own. It's a cheap Fell Cleave knockoff. Holy Spirit is at least partially unique in that it gets used at range. What does Bloodspiller offer? It's the Shadow Wall problem all over again. We already know that Bloodspiller isn't allowed to outdamage Fell Cleave. So why doesn't it live up to its name and steal resources? Steal HP. Steal MP. Anything will do. Just give it some personality.

The framework is already there. It just needs to be expanded on. And it needs to be a DRK exclusive.

[Chrono_Rising]

I agree that lifesteal is not enough of a theme to balance the class around, but it is certainly not the only theme they could revolve the job around.
Debuffing
Lifesteal
Resource management

Many of these themes can be used like a cycle:
Debuffing to mitigate damage and increase your damage can be used to buff things like your resource steal (especially if resource steal depended on the damage dealt rather than fixed amounts), which in turn gives more resources to manage, some of which is used to maintain your ability to debuff the enemy.

The main problems I want to see fixed in the 5.0 expansion are:
(1) Charging Limit Break through shielding in general needs to be addressed, ideally through deleting this.
(2) Lowering animation locks to make speed play more accessible. If we are keeping speed buffs we need to recognize the need to double weave.
(3) Tank Identities need to be separate and some classes need a trim.
(4) Utilities need to balance with dps output. Paladin and Warrior shields can be used in multiple places to save heals and convert healer GCDS, cover can be used in multiple creative places to prevent wipes/wasting healer GCDs, the new changes to ground aoes make it so that passage of arms can be weaved into your rotation to gain the benefits without the lost GCDs we use to associate with it. Dark Knight, even with its great personal mitigation, is not offering enough to offset these utilities.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

They'll get it eventually.

Sometimes it feels like they just have blatant bias to some jobs. I mean there's literally nothing SCH can't do right now. If that's not bias then it's some crazy incompetence in balancing.
And they are trying to make WHM/AST work. That's actually hilarious.

[Jandor]

Sometimes it feels like they just have blatant bias to some jobs. I mean there's literally nothing SCH can't do right now. If that's not bias then it's some crazy incompetence in balancing.
And they are trying to make WHM/AST work. That's actually hilarious.

I remember reading somewhere that jobs are designed essentially in a bubble. The Scholar guy is off at one side of the office making Scholar abilities and deciding Scholar gameplay and stuff, and the White Mage guy is over at the other side doing the exact same thing, and they never really talk to each other.

I mean, they obviously do talk to each other a bit, but you never really get a sense that AST guy, SCH guy and WHM guy sit down and decide who's doing what, how to avoid treading on each others themes, how to balance them against each other, etc.

Same thing for PLD, DRK and WAR too.

Probably the same for DPS jobs as well, but as the end goal there is just to put out X amount of damage you don't really notice it as much.

[Kreyd]

I remember reading somewhere that jobs are designed essentially in a bubble. The Scholar guy is off at one side of the office making Scholar abilities and deciding Scholar gameplay and stuff, and the White Mage guy is over at the other side doing the exact same thing, and they never really talk to each other.

I mean, they obviously do talk to each other a bit, but you never really get a sense that AST guy, SCH guy and WHM guy sit down and decide who's doing what, how to avoid treading on each others themes, how to balance them against each other, etc.

Same thing for PLD, DRK and WAR too.

Probably the same for DPS jobs as well, but as the end goal there is just to put out X amount of damage you don't really notice it as much.

That would explain quite a lot xD

[Derio]

I want the job gauges to be more active and not just some bar we watch. For DRK especially everything is 50% cost. So hopefully some new moves will use the bar while others get either reduced cost or more balanced.