Modification to Weapon Classes and their uniqueness in Battle.

[TessaJalloh]

i think this would remove quite a bit of brain work from battle, whilst an interesting concept, being able to make any attack AOE removes the urgency of building up your TP to use an AOE skill to turn the tide of battle.

It's fine with DoM because of the nature of their magic, and the range generally meaning that if they AOE constantly, they'll actually be putting people at risk, and therefore have to consider carefully first.

It also eliminates the uniqueness of playing the different melee classes entirely, marauder standing still get an aoe buff to all of their skills, gladiator get mostly single target skills with a few AOE effects on them, lancer strikes the nearby enemies to their target, or all the targets in the way of the target their attack is intended for, archer is accurate single target damage, but has the ability to shower arrows if need be, pugilist can decimate targets fast enough to not need to AOE, but still have the odd skill that lets them do so.

currently, the uniqueness of identity is not crippled by how the classes play, but by how you look. Currently there isn't enough variation in armour equivalents for the different classes. It's getting better sure, but there's still only a handful of pieces of gear that really works well enough to be used by someone taking their defences seriously

[OmegaNovaios]

i think this would remove quite a bit of brain work from battle, whilst an interesting concept, being able to make any attack AOE removes the urgency of building up your TP to use an AOE skill to turn the tide of battle.

It's fine with DoM because of the nature of their magic, and the range generally meaning that if they AOE constantly, they'll actually be putting people at risk, and therefore have to consider carefully first.

It also eliminates the uniqueness of playing the different melee classes entirely, marauder standing still get an aoe buff to all of their skills, gladiator get mostly single target skills with a few AOE effects on them, lancer strikes the nearby enemies to their target, or all the targets in the way of the target their attack is intended for, archer is accurate single target damage, but has the ability to shower arrows if need be, pugilist can decimate targets fast enough to not need to AOE, but still have the odd skill that lets them do so.

currently, the uniqueness of identity is not crippled by how the classes play, but by how you look. Currently there isn't enough variation in armour equivalents for the different classes. It's getting better sure, but there's still only a handful of pieces of gear that really works well enough to be used by someone taking their defences seriously

There is no disadvantage to AOEing heals of buffs though.

This actually gives class uniqueness because there is no difference except damage type (Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, Projectile) and regular attacks if you equip the same exact actions. With this there will at least be differences in the way that you attack.

Also, other than MRD (stance effect only) you can equip any of those action on any class for the same effect. You can even shower arrows on enemies with an AXE. XD

[TessaJalloh]

This actually gives class uniqueness because there is no difference except damage type

Self destructive arguement. I'm not sure i follow your definition of unique. :/

[Ayerc]

Forgive me, I'm just not following your OP...

First off, are you calling the different Disciplines "Weapon Classes" now? That's pretty confusing...why not just call them Disciplines like S-E does? I am aware of the thread you have quoted in your sig, I'm really asking, why change the name?

Also, are you proposing the way to add uniqueness to the disciplines is to make all their skills...more like each other? By adding an AoE toggle, and revamping existing skills (mainly MRD), you realize all you're really accomplishing is removing some of the uniqueness we currently have? How does my PUGs Concussive Blow going AoE differ from an ARCs Puncture going AoE? As Xatsh said, every class has at least one skill that can AoE, I don't see why they'd all need to.

No offense, but your suggestion is a little off base. The problem with class uniqueness isn't centered on or even in the same vicinity as whether or not our skills can toggle an AoE version.

[Naqaj]

I'd rather see the AoE toggle from DoM removed, and have single-target and AoE capability realized through different abilities. It seems there are too many abilities that do the same thing already, taking another differentiator away would seem to do more harm then good.

[OmegaNovaios]

Self destructive arguement. I'm not sure i follow your definition of unique. :/

We probably have the view over what is the definition to unique so I'm gonna show how this is different since you pretty much didn't want to think about this way.

Let's say I leveled/ranked up GLA/LNC/PGL to 20. Now I have all the actions for all 3 of those up to 20. What is the difference among these 3 classes if I use the exact same skills? Let's say my action setup goes something like this.

Action bar (just gonna use 1 for example even though this is rank 20 or you can view this as let's say rank 10 on any class):

1. Primary Regular Attack (basic regular attack, does damage based on weapon equipped)
2. Secondary Regular Attack (has an additional effect like Bind for LNC with additional stamina cost, effect varies between all classes, does damage based on weapon equipped)
3. Doomspike (2000+ TP that hits all enemies between you and your target)
4. Ferocity (increases attack power for your next attack)
5. Still Precision (increases accuracy for small duration of time)
6. Featherfoot (increases evasion until you dodge an attack)
7. Seismic Shock (1000 TP, 10 MP deals earth damage to all enemies around the target, does not affect flying targets)
8. Cure (self explanatory)
9. Provoke (self explanatory)
10. Taunt (self explanatory)

Now I can use all these skills as GLA/LNC/PGL or any other class. They all have the same effect no matter which class uses it. So there is no difference here. Now if I can AOE them or not on all classes there is no difference either. However if there is different effects added to AOEs for each class then there is (or if SE added different effects to all TP attacks BASED ON CLASS which is currently not present). This is similar to Mages since THM can cast AOE spells in a long range, cone and CON can cast AOE spells in a short range, 360 degree area.

Now Doomspike (LNC action) hits every target in a line between you and your target. I ask you what is the difference if I use this on GLA or PGL form LNC. It still hits all mobs between you and the target.

Now Seismic Shock (PGL action) hits every enemy (360 degree) around you. The same applies to this attack as above if I use it on LNC or GLA as opposed to PGL. There is no difference other than damage. Which is based on the mobs weakness to damage types. These damage types are called Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, Projectile, and Elemental.

The only difference between classes are the damage types and the Secondary Regular Attacks, because you can use every action on every class and the same thing occurs.

Would it make a difference if we add the ability to turn AOE on/off? No.

Would it make a difference if we add an effect (like secondary regular attack) to every damaging action you perform? Yes.

Would it make a difference if we add the ability to turn AOE on/off and then make AOEs different for each class? Yes.

Is there a difference now? Very little.

Can there be a difference? Up to you.

Still think there is a difference or there are enough differences among classes (based on your opinion)? If yes to either of those then please read my post on this link.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zations/page10

[OmegaNovaios]

I'd rather see the AoE toggle from DoM removed, and have single-target and AoE capability realized through different abilities. It seems there are too many abilities that do the same thing already, taking another differentiator away would seem to do more harm then good.

If this happens then there won't be any differences between CON and THM other than extremely minute differences which will have no effect on which class you other than which actions you would rather have or would rather have first if you rank both. Now if both were at rank 50 then this difference disappears.

Minute differences are: HP and MP

[TessaJalloh]

I think you're missing the fact that using these skills out of their native class does reduce the skills effectiveness, and does remove some of the bonuses associated with them, magic being the most prevelant, as you cannot aoe on a DoW using magic.

Even with extra affinity, the effectiveness is still reduced, which means you choose the skills you find useful to you, and make yourself unique, a unique gameplay style. Are there thousands of others who had the same ideas as you as to what skills to use? probably, it doesn't take much to figure out what works.

Like i said, you've structured this well, but i wonder if you've actually checked on how the skills work already for yourself before coming to these conclusions, or went off of what someone else told you.

[OmegaNovaios]

I think you're missing the fact that using these skills out of their native class does reduce the skills effectiveness, and does remove some of the bonuses associated with them, magic being the most prevelant, as you cannot aoe on a DoW using magic.

Even with extra affinity, the effectiveness is still reduced, which means you choose the skills you find useful to you, and make yourself unique, a unique gameplay style. Are there thousands of others who had the same ideas as you as to what skills to use? probably, it doesn't take much to figure out what works.

Like i said, you've structured this well, but i wonder if you've actually checked on how the skills work already for yourself before coming to these conclusions, or went off of what someone else told you.

Bold = Reasoning
Do you not see it?

You obviously didn't read my link in my previous post so I'll put it here. There isn't any reduced effectiveness with same stats. The only penalty is cool down timers among actions, HP and MP, and being able to AOE or which AOE type. Hell there is hardly any differences between classes really. Please keep in mind that my post is TRUE. I wouldn't be working for something if it wasn't a concern or something that isn't beneficial.

This is the post i made from my link on another thread:

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

[OmegaNovaios]

If using melee attacks on a mage at a distance does the same damage then I don't see your point at all comparing melee class to melee class.

Also, melee classes can cure for the same amount of HP with cures with the exact same stats. What is the difference? That's right! AOE!