getting kicked from end game pfs as soon as I join?

[HyoMinPark]

On the other hand, that's MY data that I didn't give anyone permission to use. I don't like that just a facet of your performance can be ripped out of your hands like that and uploaded for the world to see without you having any say in it.

I have to disagree with this: any content where logs are being uploaded is group content, therefore, the performance is not purely your own; Savage is a group effort, so the performance belongs to everyone in the group. Not just one person.

So, how is it determined who “owns this performance more”? How is it determined who “owns the right to upload” or “the right to deny an upload”?
It simply cannot be. This is not a black-and-white situation of “it’s mine, not yours, so you can’t do it because I say so”.

[Dzian]

I have to disagree with this: any content where logs are being uploaded is group content, therefore, the performance is not purely your own; Savage is a group effort, so the performance belongs to everyone in the group. Not just one person.

So, how is it determined who “owns this performance more”? How is it determined who “owns the right to upload” or “the right to deny an upload”?
It simply cannot be. This is not a black-and-white situation of “it’s mine, not yours, so you can’t do it because I say so”.

The easy fix would be make fflogs opt in not out.

as for the groups performance and who owns the data then i think that comes down to how the data is presented. I mean the new GDPR privacy thing basically says you cant hold or use any data that can be identifiable without express consent of the individual being identified..

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon or entire performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...


thing is doing this would eliminate a ton of the negative stigma around logs and parsers in general. and it would still allow players who wanted to show off or compete for high numbers or super fast kills. the chance to have some bragging rights. while at the same time preventing it from being misused on random players who have no interest in the site

If it isn't Savage... no one cares.

if fflogs didnt have tens of thousands of parses for everything from extreme primals to normal mode raids to expert roulette dungeons i might agree with you.

[Melichoir]

The easy fix would be make fflogs opt in not out.

as for the groups performance and who owns the data then i think that comes down to how the data is presented. I mean the new GDPR privacy thing basically says you cant hold or use any data that can be identifiable without express consent of the individual being identified..

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...

thing is doing this would eliminate a ton of the negative stigma around logs and parsers in general.

I would hazard that making it opt in by choice would actually break algorithms and skew the ranking system on FFLOGS. For things like the logs to work (or any data driven thing to work), the more data you put into it, the better typically.

if fflogs didnt have tens of thousands of parses for everything from extreme primals to normal mode raids to expert roulette dungeons i might agree with you.

People upload logs for personal bests and things, but it also catches up other people's stuff. Broadly, most raiding groups look specifically at things like Savage, and are more concerned with improvement over time. The exception being if your damage output is so drastically low that it begs the question of what are you doing (doing 1k dps at a DRG, for example, in O9S). If your dps looks decent, most raid groups will trial you.

[HyoMinPark]

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon or entire performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...

This is already a thing—if you scroll through rankings, there are users that are listed as Anonymous. These are players that have hidden their logs, but a ranking for them still exists in the site’s data. You just don’t know who they are, but you can still see the numbers.

Re: Extremes and Normal Mode—while logs exist for these, they are certainly not what statics look at when they’re recruiting for Savage groups. Me personally, I only upload them when I’m bored and want to push towards high rankings because lul why not? I’m strictly memeing at that point. But they have little bearing on what midcore to hardcore Savage groups would think of me: they’re going to be looking at my Savage logs (current and possibly past tiers) and any Ultimate logs I have. Not my Suzaku Ex logs.

Only time Ex logs would be taken into consideration is if you say you are brand new to raiding and wanting to get into it. Then a group that you talk to may look at them. But they will still, more than likely, but you through a trial to see how you handle Savage first-hand.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The easy fix would be make fflogs opt in not out.

as for the groups performance and who owns the data then i think that comes down to how the data is presented. I mean the new GDPR privacy thing basically says you cant hold or use any data that can be identifiable without express consent of the individual being identified..

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon or entire performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...


thing is doing this would eliminate a ton of the negative stigma around logs and parsers in general. and it would still allow players who wanted to show off or compete for high numbers or super fast kills. the chance to have some bragging rights. while at the same time preventing it from being misused on random players who have no interest in the site

It would also allow bad players to sneak their way into parties and waste people's time. This notion bad FFlog parses will lead to wanton kicks from pug groups is a boogeyman created by bad players trying to deflect responsibility. It simply doesn't happen. At least not with any regularity. The only time your FFlogs page may be held against you is if you're joining weekly clear parties and have never parsed above 20%. And in that case, you're a liability to the group. Stay in learning groups and learn how to perform your job better in harder content instead of wasting other people's time because you couldn't be bothered to do better. If you're relatively consistent, even if your numbers are average at best, this will never be an issue for you.

if fflogs didnt have tens of thousands of parses for everything from extreme primals to normal mode raids to expert roulette dungeons i might agree with you.

Just because categories doesn't mean they are treated equally. Some groups like to meme around with Primals, however parses from there aren't treated as anything noteworthy. If you look at any static recruitment page or discord, they will want your Savage experience. When it comes to FFlogs, Savage is the only thing people treat seriously, Ultimate notwithstanding.

[whiskeybravo]

This notion bad FFlog parses will lead to wanton kicks from pug groups is a boogeyman created by bad players trying to deflect responsibility. It simply doesn't happen. At least not with any regularity.

With regularity being the caveat, even I have participated in kicking gray SAMs out of my PFs. Multiple times. BLM too. Like, if you got 8 kills of o9s but aren't even breaking 5k as a SAM or BLM - You just got carried. Now I don't always kick people, it depends what friends I'm running with because some are more hardcore than others. It depends if we're trying to farm or just trying to clear (like weekly clears on alt characters).

Due consideration, IMO someone that's pugging every week is a lot worse off because I know the kinda bs things that can go wrong in a pug environment, so it may not always be their fault. But, I also know that good players can still perform at a high level even in a bad group. Just have to judge on a case by case basis.

As for hiding logs.. IDK I'd probably give them the benefit of the doubt for a couple of pulls at least, but in general I think you'd only hide them if you had something to hide, so it can be a red flag for people.

What happens when a player who was in learning groups and started bad, is now skilled, and tries to move up?

Do that hey have this albatross of fflogs from when they were in those learning groups still following then forward?

I think it can. But, if you display a fair amount of confidence in yourself, and willingness to take advice and improve, and then actually follow through with it, it will generally work out fine. My static SMN started out rather middle of the road, but I gave her a chance because I wanted a SMN for our caster spot, and now 2 raid cycles later she's consistently the highest DPS in the group. It's not always going to work out, of course, but if you're determined to make it happen then you got a good shot of getting there.