getting kicked from end game pfs as soon as I join?

[Stormfur]

I very much agree with the rest of your post but I just don't think it's fair to look at fflogs this way. The only time your performance is your own is when you're doing something solo. The rest of the time, good or bad, you aren't 100% responsible for or in control of those numbers to begin with much less enough so that you have any ownership over them.

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover (or a parse by its color, in this case). You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

[HyoMinPark]

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

I’m sorry, but these two things are not even remotely comparable. This is a huge strawman, my dude.

[MoroMurasaki]

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover (or a parse by its color, in this case). You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

Of course, any time I bring this up, people ask "why are you against it? You must have something to hide!" But to those people I'd simply reply:

"Glass bathroom stalls."

Could you imagine glass bathroom stalls being installed in public restrooms? (mock outrage) What? You think that's crazy? Well why are you against it? You must have something to hide!

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

I may be the crazy one here but I would gladly allow every log of everything I've ever been in be public to everyone ever than to be naked in front of strangers and using the restroom.

If you don't feel the same way... I mean congrats, that's some impressive self confidence.

But no, none of this is a rebuttal. You could be hiding perfectly respectable logs but in my experience people with hidden logs perform worse than people with open ones only showing grey. That is also the experience (it seems) of most other people who think to look at fflogs when bringing a random player into Savage. It might not be the case with you specifically, you may be really great, but when it's snap judgment time I'm not putting my money on a slim chance.

[Nora_of_Mira]

I understand. Because it is a group effort, I understand why someone would want to see your specific contribution in that specific fight. Unfortunately that's all they see and they very much do judge a book by its cover. [...] You can't explain "well, I was down with the flu" or "we were still learning the fight at that point." or whatever. It doesn't tell the whole story or make up the whole picture of you as a player.

I don't want to say it, but that's because that is all that matters. If the group's objective is to clear a fight, prog a fight, or even start learning a fight, and you can't participate on the same level due to being sick or because they're lying...you shouldn't be in that party. And you or whoever should not even want to be in a party while you're sick or underperforming, or w/e.

It's way too defensive to say "you dont know the whole story, man" when instead you or whoever should just take responsibility for your actions and adjust.

[Beckett]

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you shouldn't want privacy. Maybe I don't want my specific contribution shared. That should be my prerogative. But hiding it immediately causes a reflex reaction of "you must be hiding it because you're bad."

In the context of joining a group for Savage raid content, I look at it more like applying for a job. When you're joining a clear party, you're presenting yourself as a qualified player. I don't think it's unreasonable for the party leader to "check your resume", so to speak.

"So, you're qualified for this position?"
"Oh yes, I'm very skilled!"
"Alright, let me just check your references...
Okay, I called your last job and they said you were fired for gross incompetence."

And if you don't bring your resume, you shouldn't be surprised when your potential employer is concerned that you're obfuscating your past job history.

[Sylvina]

In the context of joining a group for Savage raid content, I look at it more like applying for a job. When you're joining a clear party, you're presenting yourself as a qualified player. I don't think it's unreasonable for the party leader to "check your resume", so to speak.

"So, you're qualified for this position?"
"Oh yes, I'm very skilled!"
"Alright, let me just check your references...
Okay, I called your last job and they said you were fired for gross incompetence."

And if you don't bring your resume, you shouldn't be surprised when your potential employer is concerned that you're obfuscating your past job history.

It's still a game, treating it as a job is absurd. Sure you have to show up on time for raids. but having to bring a "Resume" and being judged before people even get to know you is a cancer.

[HyoMinPark]

On the other hand, that's MY data that I didn't give anyone permission to use. I don't like that just a facet of your performance can be ripped out of your hands like that and uploaded for the world to see without you having any say in it.

I have to disagree with this: any content where logs are being uploaded is group content, therefore, the performance is not purely your own; Savage is a group effort, so the performance belongs to everyone in the group. Not just one person.

So, how is it determined who “owns this performance more”? How is it determined who “owns the right to upload” or “the right to deny an upload”?
It simply cannot be. This is not a black-and-white situation of “it’s mine, not yours, so you can’t do it because I say so”.

[Dzian]

I have to disagree with this: any content where logs are being uploaded is group content, therefore, the performance is not purely your own; Savage is a group effort, so the performance belongs to everyone in the group. Not just one person.

So, how is it determined who “owns this performance more”? How is it determined who “owns the right to upload” or “the right to deny an upload”?
It simply cannot be. This is not a black-and-white situation of “it’s mine, not yours, so you can’t do it because I say so”.

The easy fix would be make fflogs opt in not out.

as for the groups performance and who owns the data then i think that comes down to how the data is presented. I mean the new GDPR privacy thing basically says you cant hold or use any data that can be identifiable without express consent of the individual being identified..

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon or entire performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...


thing is doing this would eliminate a ton of the negative stigma around logs and parsers in general. and it would still allow players who wanted to show off or compete for high numbers or super fast kills. the chance to have some bragging rights. while at the same time preventing it from being misused on random players who have no interest in the site

If it isn't Savage... no one cares.

if fflogs didnt have tens of thousands of parses for everything from extreme primals to normal mode raids to expert roulette dungeons i might agree with you.

[Melichoir]

The easy fix would be make fflogs opt in not out.

as for the groups performance and who owns the data then i think that comes down to how the data is presented. I mean the new GDPR privacy thing basically says you cant hold or use any data that can be identifiable without express consent of the individual being identified..

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...

thing is doing this would eliminate a ton of the negative stigma around logs and parsers in general.

I would hazard that making it opt in by choice would actually break algorithms and skew the ranking system on FFLOGS. For things like the logs to work (or any data driven thing to work), the more data you put into it, the better typically.

if fflogs didnt have tens of thousands of parses for everything from extreme primals to normal mode raids to expert roulette dungeons i might agree with you.

People upload logs for personal bests and things, but it also catches up other people's stuff. Broadly, most raiding groups look specifically at things like Savage, and are more concerned with improvement over time. The exception being if your damage output is so drastically low that it begs the question of what are you doing (doing 1k dps at a DRG, for example, in O9S). If your dps looks decent, most raid groups will trial you.

[HyoMinPark]

that said what you could do is upload your parses if you want but any players who hadn't opted in or consented to fflogs would have to be anonymised so anyone looking at that particular parse would just see monk or dragoon. and while they could see how that monk or dragoon or entire performed they wouldnt be able to identify them without consent...

This is already a thing—if you scroll through rankings, there are users that are listed as Anonymous. These are players that have hidden their logs, but a ranking for them still exists in the site’s data. You just don’t know who they are, but you can still see the numbers.

Re: Extremes and Normal Mode—while logs exist for these, they are certainly not what statics look at when they’re recruiting for Savage groups. Me personally, I only upload them when I’m bored and want to push towards high rankings because lul why not? I’m strictly memeing at that point. But they have little bearing on what midcore to hardcore Savage groups would think of me: they’re going to be looking at my Savage logs (current and possibly past tiers) and any Ultimate logs I have. Not my Suzaku Ex logs.

Only time Ex logs would be taken into consideration is if you say you are brand new to raiding and wanting to get into it. Then a group that you talk to may look at them. But they will still, more than likely, but you through a trial to see how you handle Savage first-hand.