getting kicked from end game pfs as soon as I join?

[KaivaC]

I've maybe seen 1 person be removed due to DPS and it was back in Midas where we had a BRD doing less DPS than the tanks and he got called out and kicked we didn't kill Faust in A5S due to his DPS, got called out, kicked, and we moved on. Did anyone lose any sleep over it? No.

We physically couldn't pass it because they were AFK/doing sub par DPS we didn't even put em down we just said thanks for coming but we need just more DPS and replaced and cleared it after I don't get why people think they're putting people down when they're literally holding groups back, you should know your rotation by 70.

I can second this. Most raiders generally are not jerks about something like this. Last time I'd seen it happen, the party leader said to the SAM and BLM in the group that he needed them to pick it up so we could clear, of all fights, Suzaku Ex, otherwise he'd have to replace because we were hitting enrage. Wasn't a jerk about it - stated what needed to be done, since they were pulling less than I was as a still-novice ninja. Sure enough, next pull, BLM jumped to top DPS and the SAM didn't improve, preventing us from actually clearing the fight, so he had to be kicked.

All these arguments about stuff like this, it's almost as if the players arguing against parsers are saying all raiders are jerks for kicking someone, when it's very clear that this 'someone' is definitely holding the party as a whole back. Nor is kicking someone over DPS a jerkish behavior when the party leader says something like the poster I quoted or in my example. Jerks do exist, yeah, but you can't apply this logic to each and every situation when not everybody is the same. And honestly, based on my experiences, you'll get more toxicity over early pulling in Pagos than you will from something like parsers and DPS numbers.

[vp_cmc]

snip

If it is your private information, then what business does it have being stored on my computer? I didn't give you any permissions to you to store your data on my hdd.

[Stormfur]

We have to remember, too, that FFLogs is just a tool. It in and of itself does no damage to anyone. Now, if you use it exclusively to belittle someone, that's where issues begin to crop up. Then it becomes less about FFLogs and more about the intentions of the person using it.

Does the person you're calling out or poor DPS genuinely want to improve? If so, FFLogs can be used to show them what they might be doing wrong and where they could do better.

Does the person you're calling out not care about their performance? Well, nothing you can do about that. Just boot and move on.

I don't raid savage now, but when I did, I looked at FFLogs as a chance to "beat your high score" like in the old arcade games. It was fun, but also stressful on my schedule which is why I had to stop.

My concern with it is that I don't like third party tools being tied to my character. With the theme park example, I'm happily giving my information to SE to play this game, but there's a guy in the park selling counterfeit "fast passes" and I don't have a choice as to whether or not I want to give him my info - he'll just take it.

[Melichoir]

Theres another point for the "Parsers are bad because it promotes toxicity" angle: Achievements do the same thing. The higher end players will always find some ways to gauge how qualified a player is. In WoW, it was (atleast when I played years ago) achievement linking. You wanted to join a group to run a raid? Link your achieve. This posed even bigger issues than Parsers because completing content is a team effort, so if you were struggling to complete content due to not being able to find a good group, you were SoL. You either had to find a guild or group thatd take the risk with you, or grind through pugs until you got that clear.

Atleast wtih parsers, they can see your damage output and rotations (even on non cleared fights if you choose to upload that information) and give people who want to recruit something to go with. And most people recruiting will ask you about your performances if theyre inconsistent. If they notice you got low numbers, but the tank is dead half hte time, theyre not likely to hold those bad runs against you if it appears you were doing everything fine up till then.

But as I said, if its not parsers, itll be something else. And the more "ambiguous" the rule of measurement, the more toxic and discerning raid groups will get. Raids dont judge you by one single performance; theyll look at you as a whole. So if youre afraid of being seen as "unworthy" than just practice and improve. Wouldnt believe how much of the issue surrounding toxicity in game is down to players just not giving a rats butt about their own performance and making things difficult for other players.

[Vstarstruck]

How quickly (to TC) were you kicked? if it is like say 1-8 seconds, that is a reputation problem and has nothing to do with logs. (or a combination of bad behavior and low logs)

Also logs is not the only thing, ever meet a 80-99% player but acts like they are king of the game? can be kicked for that too, lol

[Sylvina]

Says the person who came into a raid centric discord, dismissed virtually every bit of criticism, whined endlessly about how toxic people were and clearly learned nothing. Yes, indeed, someone needs a reality check. You're simply mistaken as to whom.

And found said discord to be full of children and childish raiders who I have no desire to associate with. I'm an adult with somewhat of a real life and a SOME semblance of perspective. I got COMPLETELY "destroyed" in your pathetic discord for a tiny mistake, which I apologized for afterwards, and your idea that I shot down all "advice" is stupid. Have fun with the kids your age.

Furthermore, the idea that I am wrong that people with a brain and some sense of self in regard to their performance in game dont want to be carried is ridiculous. if people want to be carried it obviously means they don't have at least one of those things.

[HyoMinPark]

And found said discord to be full of children and childish raiders who I have no desire to associate with. I'm an adult with somewhat of a real life and a SOME semblance of perspective. I got COMPLETELY "destroyed" in your pathetic discord for a tiny mistake, which I apologized for afterwards, and your idea that I shot down all "advice" is stupid. Have fun with the kids your age.

There was arguably one individual who could be considered as having gone too far in the situation you are referencing, and that was only after you dismissed any and all of the legitimate advice that he and the others in that discord were giving you. Some people don’t appreciate the advice they’re giving to be completely dismissed with “I know my rotation” and “I’m not a bad player and I won’t have you calling me bad”.

The encounters that were brought up in that discussion all had minute things that could have been improved on, and accepting that you had made rotational errors—even though they were small and honestly quite few—would have been far more graceful than accusing everyone in that channel of calling you a bad player. Everyone makes mistakes, and pointing them out and pointing out that you have made them is not the same as someone calling you bad.

Don’t try to misconstrue what happened in that channel to fit your “tOxIc rAiDeRs” argument. Criticism is not toxicity. Despite how many disagreements I’ve had with you on here, I still attempted to address some of your concerns in a polite manner, and most of the things I said were dismissed by you. The only reason any hostility started being directed towards you was because you started calling the raiders in there names.

[Melichoir]

And found said discord to be full of children and childish raiders who I have no desire to associate with. I'm an adult with somewhat of a real life and a SOME semblance of perspective.

From my experience on being on the web for a while, if you have to sit here and call people children, say things that infer people are just "kids", talk about how adult you are...youre not likely to be all that mature, regardless of your physical age.

If youre an adult, you dont have to explain why youre an adult while denigrating your detractors as children.

Just sayin'.

[KaivaC]

And found said discord to be full of children and childish raiders who I have no desire to associate with. I'm an adult with somewhat of a real life and a SOME semblance of perspective. I got COMPLETELY "destroyed" in your pathetic discord for a tiny mistake, which I apologized for afterwards, and your idea that I shot down all "advice" is stupid. Have fun with the kids your age.

Furthermore, the idea that I am wrong that people with a brain and some sense of self in regard to their performance in game dont want to be carried is ridiculous. if people want to be carried it obviously means they don't have at least one of those things.

I was toying back and forth with deciding whether I should respond, and how I should respond. I've been in many discords, and sometimes, I get into disagreements and heated discussions with members of those discords. Some of them, I have even left. Regardless of the reasons, the one thing I won't do is bring those issues into a public spectrum. In fact, I'd much prefer to mend bridges rather than continuing to just add gasoline to the fire. I don't know what discord you are talking about, and honestly, in this context, it doesn't matter at all.

Whatever happened over discord, needs to stay in that medium. If you have beef with individuals outside of the forums, it's not something you bring here into the forums. That thread you made, and the responses you've made today - sugarcoat it all you want, but these were shots taken at specific individuals over something that happened away from the forums. This is not the place for stuff like this. Maybe you feel justified in doing things, maybe you want to one them up, or maybe you are acting out of the goodness of your heart - I don't really care about the reasonings, but the way you worded things and how you've been responding is not how you accomplish this goal, nor is labeling a group of people as childish. If this is about criticism over something that you asked for, whether you like it or not, you still don't bring your complaints about the feedback to the forums.

Either forgive and forget, or take this issue you have with somebody elsewhere. Seriously. Follow the words you are saying. Don't do something childish like bringing the feud here.

[Dirwen]

Either forgive and forget, or take this issue you have with somebody elsewhere. Seriously. Follow the words you are saying. Don't do something childish like bringing the feud here.

I would love it if most people followed this advice IRL but it ain't happening so expecting it online even more so. Some people want respect without giving it in return.