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  1. #71
    Player
    LineageRazor's Avatar
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    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,822
    Character
    Lineage Razor
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihility View Post
    FFXIV is very tightly balanced and every job is tweaked constantly to try and fit it into balance for one type of content. How do you balance a job that has no real rotations or combos or underlying mechanics or anything while also having a boatload of interchangeable skills and no real baseline to work off of aside from role actions? It's pretty much just get blue magic and use it
    How do you balance a job that has no real rotations or combos? Simple. Give it real rotations or combos. Rotations and combos in FFXIV are NEW to the franchise as a whole - for EVERY job that features them in this game, it is a new feature for that job. This is the very first Final Fantasy with this style of play - not even the other MMO, FFXI, had combos or rotations that were at all comparable.

    A boatload of interchangeable skills? BLU has had that exactly one time, in FFXI, and that was a big departure from classic Blue Mage. Normally, they have a modest spell list, typically smaller than the spell lists for WHM or BLM. You don't set spells, they're all always available.

    The argument that there can be no combos because BLU might not know all their Blue Magic falls flat, because there's no more reason for them to not learn their blue magic than there is for other jobs to not learn their abilities through job quests. If you don't know your spells yet, don't join a raid party. Go learn your spells, instead. If you're not raiding, it doesn't matter whether you know your spells or not, because you can clear the content just by mashing the keyboard into your face.

    Basically, the only way to argue that Blue Mage could not be tailored to fit this game WHILE KEEPING its core identity as a Blue Mage is if you insist that the only possible interpretation of Blue Mage is a cut'n'paste of the job from FFXI.
    (7)

  2. #72
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    "
    The argument that there can be no combos because BLU might not know all their Blue Magic falls flat, because there's no more reason for them to not learn their blue magic than there is for other jobs to not learn their abilities through job quests."

    Except there is when Blue Mage is based entirely around hunting down and learning new abilities.
    Its designed to be a challenge, its not going to be as easy as doing your next job quest, you'll spend weeks learning them.
    They specifically said, in comparison to logos abilities, because each skill will be permanent and not disposable, that they need to be much harder to obtain.

    You also wont necessarily learn then in any order. You might learn 1000 needles at lvl 5 while another Blue Mage doesnt learn it until lvl 47.
    This is completely incompatible with a fixed rotation, and you'll see why when its released.
    (2)

  3. #73
    Player
    Andevom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    718
    Character
    Andevom Vonskivaux
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    "
    The argument that there can be no combos because BLU might not know all their Blue Magic falls flat, because there's no more reason for them to not learn their blue magic than there is for other jobs to not learn their abilities through job quests."

    Except there is when Blue Mage is based entirely around hunting down and learning new abilities.
    Its designed to be a challenge, its not going to be as easy as doing your next job quest, you'll spend weeks learning them.
    They specifically said, in comparison to logos abilities, because each skill will be permanent and not disposable, that they need to be much harder to obtain.

    You also wont necessarily learn then in any order. You might learn 1000 needles at lvl 5 while another Blue Mage doesnt learn it until lvl 47.
    This is completely incompatible with a fixed rotation, and you'll see why when its released.
    Not to mention, iconic spells like 1000 Needles would be virtually useless in an endgame setting. There would be a ton of "Congratulations on learning this spell you're never gonna use!" going around. At least the system currently being formulated *seems* to make it so you'll have a use for what you can learn.
    (1)

  4. #74
    Player
    Mibgestalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    86
    Character
    Keiten Shinkugan
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    "
    Except there is when Blue Mage is based entirely around hunting down and learning new abilities.
    Its designed to be a challenge, its not going to be as easy as doing your next job quest, you'll spend weeks learning them.
    They specifically said, in comparison to logos abilities, because each skill will be permanent and not disposable, that they need to be much harder to obtain.

    You also wont necessarily learn then in any order. You might learn 1000 needles at lvl 5 while another Blue Mage doesnt learn it until lvl 47.
    This is completely incompatible with a fixed rotation, and you'll see why when its released.
    What about this precludes Blue Mage from engaging in duty finder content once enough/all abilities are obtained?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andevom View Post
    Not to mention, iconic spells like 1000 Needles would be virtually useless in an endgame setting. There would be a ton of "Congratulations on learning this spell you're never gonna use!" going around. At least the system currently being formulated *seems* to make it so you'll have a use for what you can learn.
    I imagine that even the iconic spells for a "solo class" will not be direct copies of single player abilities. 1000 Needles in its original implementation will be useless for Blue Mage once it goes past the 50 level cap either way. 1000 damage for a spell cast or GCD is simply not up to par if the class scales with the rest of the game whether or not it's in multiplayer content. So it will probably be adjusted in some way, or it will end up useless regardless of what type of content it's in. It's not a multiplayer or solo issue.
    (6)
    Last edited by Mibgestalt; 11-30-2018 at 03:32 AM.

  5. #75
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibgestalt View Post
    What about this precludes Blue Mage from engaging in duty finder content once enough/all abilities are obtained?
    Because their skills will be overpowered.
    Because they wont have a rotation or skills interacting with each other, they wont have burst windows or anything that would resemble a rotation, which means each skill has to stand on its own. Each skill has to work efficiently and in isolation.

    If it were BLM, then it means Fire IV would have to work without Astral Fire, without Enochian, without Umbral Hearts.

    Once you add all those isolated, full powered abilities together, you get a whole selection of Fire IVs, Ahk Morns, Trick Attacks, Carve and Splits, Flares, Holys, TBNs, The Balance, Earthly Stars, etc. that you can use without build up or prerequisite.
    (1)

  6. #76
    Player
    Mibgestalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    86
    Character
    Keiten Shinkugan
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    Because their skills will be overpowered.
    Because they wont have a rotation or skills interacting with each other, they wont have burst windows or anything that would resemble a rotation, which means each skill has to stand on its own. Each skill has to work efficiently and in isolation.

    If it were BLM, then it means Fire IV would have to work without Astral Fire, without Enochian, without Umbral Hearts.

    Once you add all those isolated, full powered abilities together, you get a whole selection of Fire IVs, Ahk Morns, Trick Attacks, Carve and Splits, Flares, Holys, TBNs, The Balance, Earthly Stars, etc. that you can use without build up or prerequisite.
    If they decide to go that route, sure. I don't think the skills can be quite that broken, even if they're only allowed in open world content, just for the sake of things like FATEs and hunts. Players still engage in those to a degree that a class one-shotting every mob in it with various Akh Morns would be detrimental to them. The only thing Yoshi gave as an example of "overpowered" was Lvl 5 Death, which isn't really related to potency or debuffs or whatever. Unrelated note: Would you be satisfied if Blue Mage was just a bunch of those overpowered moves of other classes with different animations that have with no real uniqueness? Doesn't sound fun to me, personally, at least not to the degree that I'd want to be locked out of the rest of the game.

    I do think the design they are going with has limitations for other reasons, they've said MP is going to be a massive limiting factor, which hints that in the Carnival it's going to be less "use what spells you want to kill the mob" and more puzzle-like "find the right combination of skills within the MP limit", which makes me think people won't be able to bring it into nearly as much content they think they will.
    (6)

  7. #77
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibgestalt View Post
    If they decide to go that route, sure. I don't think the skills can be quite that broken, even if they're only allowed in open world content, just for the sake of things like FATEs and hunts. Players still engage in those to a degree that a class one-shotting every mob in it with various Akh Morns would be detrimental to them. The only thing Yoshi gave as an example of "overpowered" was Lvl 5 Death, which isn't really related to potency or debuffs or whatever. Unrelated note: Would you be satisfied if Blue Mage was just a bunch of those overpowered moves of other classes with different animations that have with no real uniqueness? Doesn't sound fun to me, personally, at least not to the degree that I'd want to be locked out of the rest of the game.

    I do think the design they are going with has limitations for other reasons, they've said MP is going to be a massive limiting factor, which hints that in the Carnival it's going to be less "use what spells you want to kill the mob" and more puzzle-like "find the right combination of skills within the MP limit", which makes me think people won't be able to bring it into nearly as much content they think they will.
    No they wont be those exact skills, some with be gimmicks and debuffs, but all will be more effective than similar skills on the other classes, because BLU is built to solo.

    It might not be a tank or a healer, but it has to be tanky and self sufficient, and have enough dps to take down similar level enemies that would otherwise need 2 dps and a tank to defeat, so its average potency has to be at least 2.5x that of any other dps.
    (1)

  8. #78
    Player
    jon041065's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Amson Beoulve
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Hmmm. There's some assumptions coming from the side that likes blu as it was announced about things we don't know yet. At least our side was complaining about something in the slides.

    We don't know if there will be a rotation or combos yet. There could be some very easy to learn spells that form various combos/rotations.

    We don't know if we can learn whatever spell we please when we want to. There could be level requirements or something story wise that has to be done first like maybe there will be job quests that award traits letting you learn higher tiered spells.
    (0)

  9. #79
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by jon041065 View Post
    Hmmm. There's some assumptions coming from the side that likes blu as it was announced about things we don't know yet. At least our side was complaining about something in the slides.

    We don't know if there will be a rotation or combos yet. There could be some very easy to learn spells that form various combos/rotations.

    We don't know if we can learn whatever spell we please when we want to. There could be level requirements or something story wise that has to be done first like maybe there will be job quests that award traits letting you learn higher tiered spells.
    That would defeat the entire concept of hunting down enemy skills, and there would be no reason at all for it to be a limited job.

    Edited due to stupid daily post limit:

    Quote Originally Posted by jon041065 View Post
    Disagree with the first half of that statement and agree with the second half.
    No, it would. If you need to learn your abilities in a certain order to maintain some kind of rotation, then it's just standard job quests with an RNG success rate, and nobody would enjoy that.

    It's at complete odds with what they've sought to achieve, and give that they've implied no two Blue mages will have the same skills, at least before they've learned them all, then I think it's incredibly unlikely this is the case.
    If there's a rotation, or skills have to be learned in a certain order, then the whole limited job thing is utterly pointless.
    (0)
    Last edited by Seraphor; 11-30-2018 at 05:24 AM. Reason: daily post limit

  10. #80
    Player
    jon041065's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    399
    Character
    Amson Beoulve
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphor View Post
    That would defeat the entire concept of hunting down enemy skills, and there would be no reason at all for it to be a limited job.
    Disagree with the first half of that statement and agree with the second half.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mibgestalt View Post
    I mean if you really want to get into it, every job has suffered sweeping changes to fit into the game. White Mage, Scholar, Black Mage, all of them. Still, (increasing amounts of) people are still playing FFXIV, so those design choices can't be as hated as some would like to make you believe. There's no reason Blue Mage should be the first job where the line is drawn and limitations are placed because "it just can't work".

    If anything the design philosophy should be to make jobs like this "Advanced Jobs", with additional content and hurdles to clear before being able to bring them into the full game, not "Limited Jobs", where they are just restricted from the full game arbitrarily, and (for now) permanently.
    (2)
    Last edited by jon041065; 11-30-2018 at 08:45 AM.

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