Blue mage and why I like the idea

[jon041065]

It was not directed at you though. It was directed to those that feel the need to antagonize everyone that dares to speak positively about the idea. Though you claim to be speaking for the majority of those that want BLU implemented as a regular job, that does unfortunately not stop the overwhelming agression directed towards those of us that actually like the current plans. Just take a look through the various BLU-related topics on this forum and look for the posts that are in favor of it, then look at the next few responses after them.

Fair enough and yes I've seen that there was an increase of people on our side saying those kinds of things in the last several days. I wish there wasn't this post limit so I could reply to each one saying that I think solo content is fine and to focus feedback on the limited job concept and not the content itself. However, your post doesn't help to get to a middle ground just like their posts don't.

*(Raises a quizzical eyebrow)*

While I'm attempting to follow the strange logic of your argument... what are you even on about with the "sides" verbiage...?

You said that there are people that don't understand that there are others the desire solo content so you're talking about people that want to see full blue mage aka our side. I'm not denying that there are those that are saying to not even make solo content in a mmorpg. But there's also people on the other side that are saying for us to just give up and accept that we can't main blu. There's wrong on both sides but there are also plenty of us saying that we believe SE can make both groups happy.

[Ramesses]

Just as there are people from your side that are oblivious to the fact that a lot of us wanted to main blue mage so will be disappointed no matter how fun the limited blu content might be. Jobs shouldn't cater to any single type of player. They should be for everyone then there be types of content for you to choose to take the jobs into.

There are people on our side that are just against solo content period but it's disingenuous to act like there isn't more of us that are saying we want both sides to get what they want. Solo content can be added to the game and NOT require solo jobs.

*(Raises a quizzical eyebrow)*

While I'm attempting to follow the strange logic of your argument... what are you even on about with the "sides" verbiage...?

[BubblyBoar]

Why is this an if/or deal? Why can't we get both? I don't understand why not wanting BLU to be limited somehow gets rid of the solo content portion of BLU. Why is that so hard to understand?



Why does BLU have to be sacrificed to make this solo content?


Why can't all job have access to the monster arena they are calling masked Carnivale? Why can't all jobs have logos actions for fun solo play? WHy just BLU?


Why can't we do cooler solo content with limited jobs? Call them disciples of Commerce/Entertainment? Make classes like Performer, Blitzball Player, Chocobo racing, Airship pilot all into expansive mini-games with their own skills and leveling system like they are doing for BLU instead?

[Blueyes]

I want to use this spot to express something that has been on my mind for quite some time now that I want get off my chest before we receive official confirmation. I hope that the LB3 for Blue Mage will be Protostar. I want to walk through my investigation process to show how I came to that conclusion. (Minor spoilers ahead.)

LB3 represents the pinnacle of what a job can do. It is their ultimate attack. In the case of Blue Mage, their ultimate attack is something borrowed from a powerful foe. There are basically two ways that SE can go about it. Either they can take something from previous Final Fantasy games and establish it as BLU's LB3 in this game, or SE can use something from an already established foe that exists within FFXIV.

I started my investigation by looking at what has been already established. The first place I looked was at the Behemoth which use Ecliptic Meteor. Behemoth's are a well established and iconic enemy in the Final Fantasy franchise. There's a reason why it was used to represent FFXIV in the Monster Hunter: World crossover event. However, there was an issue with Ecliptic Meteor. Visually, it was nearly identical to the Meteor cast by Black Mage. I think it's important to have each job's LB3 be distinctive. So for that reason, I eliminated Ecliptic Meteor as an option.

Let's take it further. What, or who, is the strongest non-Primal monster that exists within FFXIV? That can be debated, but I concluded that Midgardsormr was worthy of that title. In a fight against Midgardsormr, an ultimate attack called Protostar is used. Visually, it was distinctive, which was ideal. It proved to be a solid option.

But now to take it even further. It was around this time that I heard about the rumor that Blue Mage would learn spells from Primals. I was skeptical, but if true, then that would raise the bar in terms of what could represent the ultimate attack of a Blue Mage. So then, who is the apex predator of Primals? Well, obviously, that's Bahamut. Summoner already had that covered. So what's next?

My investigation brought me to Shinryu. And here is where things get interesting. The ultimate attack used by Shinryu in FFXIV is none other than Protostar. Both Shinryu and Midgardsormr use an ultimate attack of the same name. Though visually, they appear different from one another, which potentially opens the door for Blue Mage to invoke its own take, like giving it a blue color palette, for example.

But there's more to Shinryu that makes this option appealing. Shinryu knows the actions of other Primals. Aerial Blast, Diamond Dust, Earthen Fury, Hellfire, Judgement Bolt, Tidal Wave. Shinryu uses all of those. This mirrors what Blue Mage can do with evidence of Glass Dance and Eruption being shown. Thematically, it fits incredibly well.

To make a long story short, if SE decides to have the LB3 for Blue Mage be based on the ultimate attack of an already established foe, I think Protostar would be a great option.

[MeowingKittens]

Tell me again how a job we were never promised to begin with, whose restricted status was told to us AT REVEAL, somehow ruins what the game already has to offer you right now. They are under no obligation to make every job playable at end game, nor do they need to add a job cause you've been asking for years.

Even if Blu was raid ready, there would be no telling if it would actually be GOOD, and people were planning on maining it? Really? Talk about counting your chickens. This is the same community who blindly follows META and no DUPES, locks BLM and SAM out of PF, and then complains about it. What makes you think Blue wouldn't also suffer from that kind of fate, at least for the first few months?

It's fine to be disappointed. It's fine to EXPRESS that disappointment. What I am against is the people making demands that it IMMEDIATELY CHANGE THIS IS THE WORST EVER OMG. We haven't tried it yet. Maybe it's a not a job for you. There's 26 others already in the game. Having one not liked by a bunch of people is an inevitability. If you're not going to be willing to give it a try and give ACTUAL constructive feedback, then that shows you're not not so much upset about them trying something new that's just not your thing, you're upset that Blu wasn't what YOU wanted it to be.

[jon041065]

Tell me again how a job we were never promised to begin with, whose restricted status was told to us AT REVEAL, somehow ruins what the game already has to offer you right now. They are under no obligation to make every job playable at end game, nor do they need to add a job cause you've been asking for years.

Even if Blu was raid ready, there would be no telling if it would actually be GOOD, and people were planning on maining it? Really? Talk about counting your chickens. This is the same community who blindly follows META and no DUPES, locks BLM and SAM out of PF, and then complains about it. What makes you think Blue wouldn't also suffer from that kind of fate, at least for the first few months?

It's fine to be disappointed. It's fine to EXPRESS that disappointment. What I am against is the people making demands that it IMMEDIATELY CHANGE THIS IS THE WORST EVER OMG. We haven't tried it yet. Maybe it's a not a job for you. There's 26 others already in the game. Having one not liked by a bunch of people is an inevitability. If you're not going to be willing to give it a try and give ACTUAL constructive feedback, then that shows you're not not so much upset about them trying something new that's just not your thing, you're upset that Blu wasn't what YOU wanted it to be.

26? There's 15 combat jobs currently and at least two more on the way but they don't use enemy abilities. Unless the yet to be announced 5.0 job is blue mage which I think we can say isn't happening.

It can diminish the enjoyment of the game for some of us that were waiting to one day main blue mage. For some it probably does actually ruin the game to not be able to and the limited job concept makes others like myself weary of the future of the game.

They are under no obligation to make every job playable at endgame but it's pretty silly not to make every combat job be for everyone. Same as it would be silly to have a DoH/L that can't interact with the gathering/crafting side of the game fully.

There are not many that are demanding that limited blu be changed NOW. There are definitely a lot more of us saying we understand that it's not possible to change it before 5.0 releases and are fine with waiting till the next expac. We don't need to try it out first to know that we will never be fine with the limitations and that a concept of making jobs targeting only portions of the player base is a bad idea. Jobs should be for everyone to use in the content of their choosing.

[MeowingKittens]

Last time I checked, there were 8 DoH and 3 DoL jobs. They ARE in fact, content. Simple math tells you that’s 26.

And you still haven’t answered the question, how does this ruin things for you RIGHT NOW? Would you still be outraged if you weren’t getting blue at all? What if blue was combat ready and turned out complete crap? What would you ultimately do then?

You are all but admitting you have hyped yourself up over something that you were never told you were getting. You speak of saying it’s bad to cater to a section of the playerbase, but yet demand blue, even if given time, cater you YOUR vision of it, seemingly unaware you are ALSO only a portion of the playerbase.

I get why you guys are disappointed, I do. This is a risky move they’re making that may or may not pay off. Regardless of what they did, SOMEONE was going to be unhappy. But what you’re ACTUALLY saying is “it’s okay to cater to us who want a raidable blue, but not cater to any of those players who have criticized the game for sticking to the same formulas for 5 years and want something different.”

Until we all actually TRY it and see what they’ve actually done with it, the insistence that it is bad is something I cannot take the slightest bit seriously. You can’t say anything objectively about it, nor can I, for that matter.

I’m looking forward to seeing it in action and some new type of content, but I also understand that it may be a disaster. Maybe you are right and this is bad for the health of the game. But you don’t have that clairvoyance.

[jon041065]

Last time I checked, there were 8 DoH and 3 DoL jobs. They ARE in fact, content. Simple math tells you that’s 26.

And you still haven’t answered the question, how does this ruin things for you RIGHT NOW? Would you still be outraged if you weren’t getting blue at all? What if blue was combat ready and turned out complete crap? What would you ultimately do then?

You are all but admitting you have hyped yourself up over something that you were never told you were getting. You speak of saying it’s bad to cater to a section of the playerbase, but yet demand blue, even if given time, cater you YOUR vision of it, seemingly unaware you are ALSO only a portion of the playerbase.

I get why you guys are disappointed, I do. This is a risky move they’re making that may or may not pay off. Regardless of what they did, SOMEONE was going to be unhappy. But what you’re ACTUALLY saying is “it’s okay to cater to us who want a raidable blue, but not cater to any of those players who have criticized the game for sticking to the same formulas for 5 years and want something different.”

Until we all actually TRY it and see what they’ve actually done with it, the insistence that it is bad is something I cannot take the slightest bit seriously. You can’t say anything objectively about it, nor can I, for that matter.

I’m looking forward to seeing it in action and some new type of content, but I also understand that it may be a disaster. Maybe you are right and this is bad for the health of the game. But you don’t have that clairvoyance.

Did I say I want blue mage just for our side? I believe I said quite the opposite. That jobs should be for everyone. If you check my post history, you will see I've been saying that I think SE should give both sides what they want and not at the cost of what the other side wants. Yes, this will take a lot of time and plenty on our side have said we are okay with waiting for it IF we knew a full version of blu was in the works.

Your question didn't specify what if blu was crap in the sense of gameplay or balance so I'll address both. If it was awful gameplay wise, then it would depend if I already told people I would main it for raids or not and how easy it would be to change up the group. For example, if I said I was going to main ninja, then I would be a bit of a jerk if I said I wanted to change mains and now my group has lost Trick Attack until we find someone willing to play nin. I'm someone that sticks to my word even if it's at a cost to myself. This is also why I'm in favor of SE using new jobs to give choices that shake up the meta. Do you want trick attack or do you want some other group utility that is close enough in value?

Now if you meant it was fun to play but wasn't balanced well then that wouldn't be different than what already happens in game and in other mmorpgs. I would have to decide if it was fun enough to accept some inferior output or not. If it was so far behind the other options within the role then players would give feedback and ask for buffs.

Also, I said 15 combat jobs as that is what is relevant to the discussion. But if you want to get technical, DoH and DoL are classes. You can get the "Soul of X" items for some of them but that still does not change the name of the class and you can still use abilities from all the other crafters using the old cross class system.

Just as the pro limited jobs side can't say objectively it is a good thing. The only objective part of this whole debate is the information we were given during the live letter. Everyone in this debate has just been giving their subjective feelings on that information. And to our side, the limitations are not acceptable no matter how fun the side content could potentially be.

Don't have clairvoyance but saw WoW start down a similar path and how that has now ended up. I was even one of the "I'll wait and see because I don't think it will be that bad" people back when that game started to shift majorly.

[MeowingKittens]

And this is how we have an actual adult conversation on the matter. I thank you for your honest answers. While I have not played WoW and will have to take your word on that, it’s at least an example.

My point were more to address the masses as a whole rather than you in particular; it was just easier since you were already right here. Many people ARE asking to be directly catered to and get what they wanted out of blue. They aren’t saying “I think the devs are making a mistake and here’s why”, but instead “this is the worst no really the game is comepletely ruined now”, and they don’t understand the difference.

It would be nice if both sides could get their way, but it’s not going to happen; it would just be two separate jobs at that point. Allowing DF under certain conditions won’t happen without a lot of backend restructuring of the matchmaking system, which ALREADY doesn’t account for skills learned (see the amount of people at 4.0 launch in Royal Menagerie without their 70 job quests done for that).

[jon041065]

And this is how we have an actual adult conversation on the matter. I thank you for your honest answers. While I have not played WoW and will have to take your word on that, it’s at least an example.

My point were more to address the masses as a whole rather than you in particular; it was just easier since you were already right here. Many people ARE asking to be directly catered to and get what they wanted out of blue. They aren’t saying “I think the devs are making a mistake and here’s why”, but instead “this is the worst no really the game is comepletely ruined now”, and they don’t understand the difference.

It would be nice if both sides could get their way, but it’s not going to happen; it would just be two separate jobs at that point. Allowing DF under certain conditions won’t happen without a lot of backend restructuring of the matchmaking system, which ALREADY doesn’t account for skills learned (see the amount of people at 4.0 launch in Royal Menagerie without their 70 job quests done for that).

I don't know if that first sentence was directed at me like I haven't been discussing this as an adult but I'll let that slide because maybe you meant in general.

I've said in previous posts that I have seen an uptick in some on our side saying "waste of resources" and such about limited blu and that I don't agree with it. Those posts don't help the situation just like posts saying that it has to be one way or another don't help either. So obviously I have an issue with your post at the end but have said what I thought about the zero-sum line of thought.

Before I get into the matchmaking thing, I want to state that isn't the only issue our side has with limited jobs but let's stick to this part of the discussion for now.

I don't see many arguments against the "two separate jobs" that I would consider to be compelling. In terms of the resources and effort to make it happen, it would be less animation work due to being able to use what's already been made but more work in the mechanical and balance aspects. It could be the only new job for 6.0 and introduce a multi role or talent system. Now for the point that others made that has merit in my eyes. What would you call these separate jobs? I put out "Carnival Mage" and "Blue Mage". Could do "Blue Mage" and "Blu Mage" and I'd be fine being the latter. The simplest solution though would be something like "Blue Mage" and "Blue Mage^". Some symbol to indicate which one the person is playing as.

It would definitely take some work to add a check for certain skills before being able to queue up but that's only one proposed solution. It could just be a check for all skills or something to do with the achievement system. "Learned all level 21-25 spells" to unlock matchmaking for that level range. Granted that's assuming there are hard level requirements to even learn spells. Another option is requiring completion of the Carnival. Again, this is based on an assumption that you will have to use every spell at least once to complete that content. Then there is the toggle option. Could be that you have to be in an area that gives rested exp and can toggle between the limited and normal state. They could make a curated set of spells that are balanced.

An easier solution would be DF settings. Something like "relaxed", "intermediate", and "serious" options for the type of people you would want to be matched with similar to how FCs can check off that they are for casual and/or hardcore content. An idea I had that would address this but also be a lot of work with the plus side of doing more than just handle this issue would be for cross world communities. Sorta like cross world linkshells but with a much much larger player cap and talk channels can be set up. Think discord minus the voice comms part. Then have a DF option of "only match with community members". I much rather see a solution that is player driven and that SE's only involvement could be providing tools for that.

In the end though, I think they already gave us a sufficient tool that is the party finder. That if people are so concerned about being matched with someone that doesn't know certain spells or being kicked for not knowing a spell then there's the option to make a party that suits you. To myself and others, what SE is doing is effectively kicking the player from any given random group instead of it being up to the other players in that group. That they are removing a choice instead of giving us better tools or just being hands off besides ToS violations.

It would be nice if the majority of players that are making up the two sides could come together and have a unified message of "SE please keep making open world and solo content but not through limited jobs". Our side feels the cost for how SE is doing that content is too high. It seems that the other side is worried about giving up ground now that they are getting the type of content they have been asking for and are worried they could lose it. Then you have the toxic people on both sides. Those that don't want any more solo content in 14 than there already is and the people that have a "I got mine so now I don't care" attitude. The compromise that myself and others have said we would like to see is both sides accepting that it will take SE longer to put out content for both groups but we all get the content that we are interested in. Sadly, the toxic people still keep doing what they have been doing. Either that there is no point in this content or things along the lines of "why should we have to wait? you just have to accept this content". I've thought about making a new thread with the message of what I have in quotes at the start of this paragraph but I would like someone from the other side to "make" it with me in that I know they are ready to give their support after I make the thread. To have at least one person from each side to take that first step of actually being together after this debate.

Forgot to add that I am someone that would like to see some more solo content. If you check my older posts you will see ideas I've had for solo BST content and how I would be fine with something like freelancer or mimic as a limited job and how the scope for potential gameplay could be sorta of "diablo lite".