Risk Factor. Can I have it?

[Malachite]

What's so dynamic and diverse about sitting in town waiting until a RDM or a BRD and a PLD or NIN logged on and wasn't snapped up within 15 seconds by other desperate groups?

Aye, there wasn't anything fun about waiting for a group. I'm not saying FFXI didn't have its flaws.

when dealing with people with attention spans shorter than their vocabulary and bladders the size of peas (just how difficult can it be to synchronise a toilet break?).

Hahaha, I hear ya. But that's partially what I was talking about. The party system in FFXI (when you were lucky enough to get into a group) had a very dynamic aspect to it. Like you mentioned above, something as insignificant as a toilet break caused an interruption. Everyone had a particular role in an exp group and mobs were balanced around full 6 man parties. So, one person not paying attention changed a group's dynamic pretty significantly and that's just taking into account one person. A full group had 6 people. What we often times saw in a typical exp group was something like this: one person was very focused and paying attention, while another was only half paying attention, while the healer may not have known 100% what they were doing, while the puller sort of sucked at pulling, while the tank was great and doing an awesome job, while the SAM had a problem ever since childhood of not being able to go longer than 15 minutes without peeing (poor guy), and while you're fighting a mob, some guy runs by you with a chain of bats that will soon turn around and aggro onto your group.

To most people this probably sounds like the dead opposite of a good time, and I would agree. But what I do like about the above group sample is that it exemplifies the diversity that the system allowed for. The example above is just one possibility. There were practically an infinite amount of ways for a group to play out. Personality, perseverance, gear, player ability, focus, and externalities such as other groups that were playing around you were just some of the factors that made up a very diverse party system.

FFXIV has very little of this. If someone is only partially paying attention, it doesn't really matter. If someone is a bad healer, it doesn't really matter. If someone isn't a very good puller, it doesn't really matter. If someone goes afk for 30 minutes, it doesn't really matter. If someone dies every 5 minutes, it doesn't really matter.

I would take all of the crappy things (and there were quite a few) that were a part of FFXI's combat and partying system in a heartbeat if it meant that we would get a system even half as diverse as FFXI's. Okay, maybe not the long waiting time for invites, but everything else! FFXI did a lot of things wrong, but it also did many things right. Its healthy population (one of the most successful P2P MMOs to date) is a testament to that. When first hearing of FFXIV, I remember thinking "Wow, this is going to be great. It will take all of the good things from FFXI and build upon them." My one biggest disappointment with this game has been the realization that this was not the case.

[Catharsis]

@Malachite
Thanks for being so horribly reasonable, it's rather offsetting coming from these forums.

I can empathise with some of what you're asking for, but I generally just assume that it'll come into effect with the addition of more abilities and content. It does, however, require GOOD balancing of class roles and perceptions (perception being key) - A party is not at its best sitting around forever waiting for a Conjuror to log on as the only "healer" in the game. (Not that I think healers are necessary in a FF14 experience party, but to make a successful exp party without them requires that nonexistent "skill" you're talking about.) The pace of FF11 was so glacial, as a non-red mage, you spent large amounts of your time staring at the floor (this is before level cap raises), which is hardly engaging.

Pigeonholing people into class roles actually paradoxically limits dynamism and causes another plethora of problems by throwing the player onto the mercy of public perception. Remember pre-Colibri Dragoons? The joke was they had the job ability "Auto-Leader", because there certainly was very little of a snowflake's chance in hell they'd get a party otherwise.

[Darkillumina]

@Malachite
Thanks for being so horribly reasonable, it's rather offsetting coming from these forums.

I can empathise with some of what you're asking for, but I generally just assume that it'll come into effect with the addition of more abilities and content. It does, however, require GOOD balancing of class roles and perceptions (perception being key) - A party is not at its best sitting around forever waiting for a Conjuror to log on as the only "healer" in the game. (Not that I think healers are necessary in a FF14 experience party, but to make a successful exp party without them requires that nonexistent "skill" you're talking about.) The pace of FF11 was so glacial, as a non-red mage, you spent large amounts of your time staring at the floor (this is before level cap raises), which is hardly engaging.

Pigeonholing people into class roles actually paradoxically limits dynamism and causes another plethora of problems by throwing the player onto the mercy of public perception. Remember pre-Colibri Dragoons? The joke was they had the job ability "Auto-Leader", because there certainly was very little of a snowflake's chance in hell they'd get a party otherwise.

You fail to recognize that FFXI's ideas could be implemented without the weaknesses. None of us are advocating for a identical copy of FFXI. Instead we are looking at some of the things that the game did very well and looking at ways to implement them successfully in this game. The battle system in FFXIV as it stands, lacks an identity besides spam as much as possible to kill as fast as you can.

For instance, the linearity of leveling in FFXI (Robber Crab or bust) could be changed in FFXIV by the utilization of skill-chains. Certain enemies could be very susceptible to certain skill-chains each of which is done by utilizing different classes/jobs. No matter the party makeup, people would then have options to level but in a challenging way. It would also ensure that people weren't leveling on robber crabs for 10 levels. This would prevent the 'staring at the floor' disease that you seem to have such issue with.

By the way if you were staring at the floor in FFXI, you were doing it wrong. This is coming from a DRK. Also every functional MMO needs certain class roles. Deal with it. FFXIV can attempt to avoid this by having more than one class/job being able to fulfill a role. Sure one job could do it better, but it can be perfectly viable for other classes to accomplish certain roles.

I personally prefer the structure and order of early FFXI's battle system to the wandering whirlwind of death we have now. I enjoyed finding a camp, settling in and pulling mobs as well as the excitement of dealing with an unplanned add. Again, it doesn't have to be as painful as it was in FFXI but you are simply ignorant if you think FFXI was a total detriment to the player base.