I don't understand BLU defenders

[Mibgestalt]

I try to understand where people who are defending it are coming from. It seems like it's a few main thought processes.

1. People who weren't looking forward to playing Blue Mage in FFXIV, and are happy just to have some new content that's outside the norm.
Of course they are, because this isn't coming at any cost to them. I understand that, but I implore them to think if their "main" had been limited in such a sense. Would you still be alright with it?

2. People who like BLU but believe that it can't be implemented to their liking if made multiplayer and prefer a solo implementation.
I can understand this, but I personally don't think it's a good position long-term. This is an MMORPG. Locking a class out of the MMO part of it is pretty questionable. I guess my question to this group would be: You will likely get another chance to play BLU or a BLU-style in another Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy-style game in the next few years in a developed single player experience. It will definitely be much longer (possibly over a decade if we go by history) before we see even the opportunity to play BLU in a full multiplayer setting again. Is that really worth the cost?

3. People who are only tangentially familiar with BLU or only familiar with FFXI's BLU and believe it can't be implemented at all in this MMO without destroying class balance.
Every single job in FFXIV has been changed in major ways to allow them to gel with the FFXIV system. Why should Blue Mage be the exception? Blue Mage's spells are like 70-80%% DPS, the idea that they don't fit into the Holy Trinity because of things like White Wind and Mighty Guard is honestly silly since the devs showed they were able to do this with Red Mage, which was absolutely more of a definitive hybrid than Blue Mage ever has been. Have some faith in the devs, they're clearly capable of this.

Honestly I feel like the Dev's missed the mark, because they got that people want to play Blue Mage, but they seem to have forgotten that people who wanted to play Blue Mage in FFXIV wanted to play Blue Mage in FFXIV. People are playing and asking for it in this game because they love this game as well. They wanted a synthesis, not a focused limitation.

[Tlachtga]

And don't give me the "I wanted to play BLU in a normal game environment, no matter how much they would have to butcher it". Bullkupo. The outrage would have been just the same if you couldn't acquire skills from monsters, if you couldn't select what you want to use, if anything that is trademark of BLU got lost to fit it into the current game that is FF14.

Speak for yourself. I would've preferred this. They did it with WHM, BLM, SMN, DRK, RDM and AST. All of a sudden, its an issue with BLU. I don't give a shit about getting skills from monsters. I want to use them. All the mob grinding bullshit is just means to an end.

Once again, they've tried to cram something from FFXI into XIV, and it's a disaster. I wish they'd just stop tbh.

[InkstainedGwyn]

Ok so, I get the thousand threads for/against BLU (well, I don't because I prefer forum etiquette where there's not 100 threads to ignore because nobody with a life has time to read every single new one) but knocking people because their opinion differs from you really doesn't help your argument. I have a friend who's so bitter he can't main BLU because the name matters to him more than the skills that he's quitting. I have a friend who is over the moon at the "authenticity" of the class and can't wait to try it. They each have an opinion (I have none, I'm AST/RDM for life.) Just because you don't like that some people are happy doesn't mean you get to tell them they're wrong. Just because some people are happy doesn't mean they can tell you to suck it up and appreciate it (yes, it's happening on both sides.) Explain your complaints, but don't then attack the other side - it ruins your argument.

And while you're at it - try to pick one thread to keep your Important Complaints to. You may think that volume outweighs lengths but I've been a forum mod. It doesn't.

[XiXiQ]

I don't understand all the rage about it, frankly. It sounds to me like a nice enough breakaway from the norm, and we can certainly do with some of that, particularly coming into the end of a patch. Nice to see it's something for 4.5 too, even if it's currently limited. Will have to wait and see where it goes, but I don't think it's worth setting your hair on fire over yet. I was always a bit "meh" about the class because I expected all we'd get is yet another caster with a typical skillset, but what they've said about it so far sounds like it might be a fun diversion at least.

[kikix12]

[B]1.(...)Of course they are, because this isn't coming at any cost to them. I understand that, but I implore them to think if their "main" had been limited in such a sense. Would you still be alright with it?

Changing an existing class to be limited and making a new class that is limited is two different things. However I'll amuse you.

For starters, it already happened with Summoner being crippled. If it was a summoner, I'd play it as my main DPS class. As it is, I don't even want to touch it.

Other than that, really want a dancer healer in the game. If it will not be...that depends on what else happens in the expansion. If there will be a different healer in expansion that can do normal content and feel different from the current three healers?! I'll be fine with Dancer being limited. If there will be no usable healer in expansion?! I'll drop the game until the time I'll see that Square Enix starts seeing the problems in this game that I do see.

You see...It's not about the name, it's about content. If my favorite class will be butchered...I can live with it so long as there is a different class I can fall off to. It's just a name ultimately. Preferring to do something is not the same as having to do it.

I can understand this, but I personally don't think it's a good position long-term. This is an MMORPG. Locking a class out of the MMO part of it is pretty questionable.

As I said many times before in my life, MMORPG is a game where many players are on the server at one time, not necessarily involved with each other. If they WERE involved with each other, it wouldn't be MMO RPG, it would be a large-scale multiplayer.

Basically, MMO emulates the real life. You go out, there are many people around you doing their business. Because life is a "server" and the other people are "players"...are you expected to interact with them?! No. You can go through your life depending only on yourself and enjoy it, even though doing stuff with others is going to be easier and possibly more fun.

Basically, it's a "massive multiplayer online", not "massive multiplayer-only" Role Playing game.

Also, player retention is good even if it takes players playing more solo content.

You will likely get another chance to play BLU or a BLU-style in another Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy-style game in the next few years in a developed single player experience. It will definitely be much longer (possibly over a decade if we go by history) before we see even the opportunity to play BLU in a full multiplayer setting again. Is that really worth the cost?

What cost?! We do not defend Blue Mage only to not play it. We defend it because we believe we can enjoy the implementation. Well, I defend it because people vastly exaggerate the "doomsaying" in regards to it. Though I still do count among those that believing it will be fun and I prefer it done that way than mutilating it into the form of all other classes.

And me and the other players play this game now. It's an MMO, it have the potential to last years. Why should our opportunity to have a unique Blue Mage in an MMO supposed to be outshined only because a Blue Mage can come to another game?! I can reverse the question. You can have a cookie-cutter, balanced Blue Mage in the next game. Why do you want to cripple it in this MMO?!

3. People who are only tangentially familiar with BLU or only familiar with FFXI's BLU and believe it can't be implemented at all in this MMO without destroying class balance.

Yes, that is a problem. But for a different reason than you think. The people that want Blue Mage changed are equally guilty of that problem, and that includes you.

It is possible to fit this class into the content it is going to be locked out of for now with time and proper methods, without having to cripple it or lose its uniqueness/skills. But realizing that requires thinking outside the box, which people are not fond of. Point in question, mostly everyone sees only "broken, unfixable class that can only play old content" or "cookie-cutter class that gets skills from quests or have heavily moderated skills". Where are the gray parts?! Where is a class that can do both?! It is possible, just requires some time and thinking outside the box.

Time for developers to see which skills are balanced and which not. Then thinking outside the box to realize that the class may have "Fixed duty finder/current content skill list." and "Unrestricted pre-made/unsynced/solo content only.". Add one to one and you have a class that works like this and can be used in every content without breaking it. Profit! But it's not something to get "now, this instant". Seeing as people complain about it two months before it is released...clearly time is not something they are willing to offer, huh.

[Aylis]

2. People who like BLU but believe that it can't be implemented to their liking if made multiplayer and prefer a solo implementation.
I can understand this, but I personally don't think it's a good position long-term. This is an MMORPG. Locking a class out of the MMO part of it is pretty questionable. I guess my question to this group would be: You will likely get another chance to play BLU or a BLU-style in another Final Fantasy or Final Fantasy-style game in the next few years in a developed single player experience. It will definitely be much longer (possibly over a decade if we go by history) before we see even the opportunity to play BLU in a full multiplayer setting again. Is that really worth the cost?

Absolutely. Some of us are looking for a solo experience because we like options. We like the idea of being able to group with others and we like the idea of being able to go out and do our own things from time to time. We like the idea of a single player game experience that keeps growing and doesn't end when the "Game Over" screen appears. BLU has the best of both worlds, able to solo and able to do things with friends from what I understand, the class is not locked out of playing with others. The "this is an MMO" argument is not really valid. MMO just means Mass Multiplayer Online. Meaning all the player is doing is sharing the world with other players having the experience they choose to. Since the dawn of MMO's there's never been a rule that you "have" to play with others 24/7 and since the dawn of MMO's there's always been classes that can solo better then other classes. This is not a new thing by any means. I'll be honest, if BLU does offer a good solo experience then to me FFXIV can stand as a more fleshed out MMO with the others that already do offer both experiences.

[JBee]

The "this is an MMO" argument is not really valid.

While I agree with some of your sentiment, telling people their argument is not valid is a pretty poor way to go about it.

All of the jobs CAN solo, albeit some better than others, in the open world. Blue Mages, from what we have been told so far, just get more exp for doing it that way. If a player wants to just solo kill mobs in the open world, there's nothing stopping them from doing that now. And if they decide they want to break that up and queue for a roulette or a dungeon/trial/raid in the middle, then they can do that, and continue to solo for fun while they wait. Realistically, most of the time that dungeon you will queue into will only be a step or two removed from soloing anyway, since most of the time people say "hihi" and "gg" and not much else.

But if you are a Blue Mage - you don't get that option.

You have to either form a party finder group or ask FC mates or friends if they want to play with you. You cannot just queue up to jump in while you continue to do your thing, unless you happen to join a PF party instead of a DF.

No, there's no rule saying you have to group all of the time - I remember early FFXI where soloing was so hard it was all but required to group for some jobs, and it was terrible. Sometimes you just want to play the game you enjoy and not spend time with the people necessarily. I'm one of those people myself, so I get that and agree.

Adding a solo experience to an mmo is a good idea, but not at the expense of easily participating in group content.

[Rita1989]

The people defending defending it solely for the fact that it's different despite the fact it is basically taking the logos system from Eureka and putting the paint of monster skills on it and calling it a day.

People defending the fact that it "can't" be balanced when the Dev team is the one that creates and controls what is balanced.

People defending Yoshi p's narrow view of what Blue Mage could be when it all ready was adjusted in previous games like 8, 9, 10 and tactics.

People defending the fact that it's solo content when every job can already solo level in the open world if they want but almost no one does because OW monsters provide 0 challenge and adding a Blue Mage gimmic won't change that and all the end game 50 stuff will likely be too hard to solo anyways and will require a party or a level 70 to hold your hand.

So basically an Iconic job is created for 1 type of content "masked carnival" and will likely be relegated to Hildebrand or Triple triad level content going forward.

[Vaer]

Not going to knock it until I try it. But I fall into the "Why not both?" camp. You can have your insanely OP BLU out in the world and just have a preset of stuff that allows them to join group content without breaking the game. Those that want the solo god mode experience can do so and avoid joining parties, those that want to group and want to give up some of their power temporarily can do so. There's no way they didn't think of this, I just think they decided they don't have the time to balance so many abilities.

It's a lot of work sure, but a job that needs content constantly added is going to end up dead once they decide to stop and move on to other things. Maybe by 6.0 they'll change their mind and put in the work if enough people provide feedback that they want grouping options.

[Melichoir]

I keep hearing from them that BLUE doesn't fit into the holy trinity and it confuses me. The live letter straight up said that it was going to be in the caster DPS role. I'm confused about why people think they will be able to set up their skills and be tanks or healers.

BLU will be using caster role actions and caster gear. It won't have the defense or MND to do the other tasks. They have already said this in the live letter.


BLU's identity is not a class that can change its skill set to fit any role. I don't understand where this idea came from. Is it an FFXI thing? That's one of the few BLU versions I have not played. Are people basing this purely on FFXI BLU?


As far as I remember from all the BLUs I played in other games, BLU is a mage that casts monster skills. That was its only defining factor. Some of those skills were gimmicky and some were practical. Some were for fun and some were to make it a decent class. But in the end, it was just a mage with enemy skills. Where is this idea that it isn't coming from?


There's more to tanking than just having mighty guard. Aggro management, party protection, multiple mitigation tools are all part of being a tank.


The same is with healer. Just White Wind is not enough to replace the healer in your party. FFXIV healers have buffs, debuffs, single target heals, barriers, and all that stuff. ANd most important of all, they have the MND stat to power those things.


BLU is a caster with INT gear and low defenses. Sure, white wind can be a party heal that scales off INT, but what about everything else? Are they just going to give it so much stats that it can do everything? Why do that and purposely unbalance it when it could be balanced normally and enjoy content normally like BLUs in every other game in the series?

It doesnt work in game content due to the core nature of its design. You have to either incredibly dumb down the skills learned by monsters, as well as incorporate a game mechanic design for it to be functional in party content, or you leave it as is and you play it solo.

The advantage of "Monster Skills" is that tehy will be inherently powerful by having special abilities, CC, and so forth, that you cannot find on other classes. Because of this, it will allow a BLU to do the things a party can do, only by itself - as in It should be able to solo a dungeon because it will be tank/healer/2 DPS all rolled into one, broadly. This would infer, as well, that BLU play style would revolve more around using the monster skills you learned to adapt to the encounter, rather than having a rotation or priority system like all the other classes.

If you wanted to put BLU into a party setting and maintain balance, you would have to limit those monster skills greatly, as well as implement a rotation/priority system on top of it. This then starts chipping away at the BLU identity, because now the Monster Learning gimmick is really just a complicated and harder way to learn BLU class skills, rather than completing a quest or having automatic access to it. For the degree it takes to get those skills which arent all that special (as they will have to be balanced in line with other players), youre spending more effort to be on par with other classes. This is where the problem lies: Do you dumb down the class and skill just so it can play in party, which then makes it a reskinned version of another caster, or do you keep it at full power, but lock it out of DF?

The devs opted for the latter. Theyre thinking is that at the end of the day, people want the BLU experience, not a reskinned caster called a Blue Mage. This means limitations. It's not as if you wont be able to do content. You will, just wont be able to do current tier content. Youll always be behind the curve on that simply because they do not want people to bring BLU to current tier content due to balance issues.