Idea: Why not make a solo version of every class?

[Hyren575]

massive

multiplayer

BLU is an excuse to keep a boring and uninspired overworld. Hold hostage a fan favorite and one of the most requested job since xiv reveal and force players to play the least interesting "content" the game has to offer.

I semi agree with you in the sense that it isn't necessary to lock any class to one side or the other under a system like the one I presented. The goal would be to have both. A balanced one and a diverse/unique one tracked seperately. If something like this was added I would advocate making a traditional version of Blue Mage in the same vein as making a solo version of the other classes. However, I am not entirely against the idea of having some unique content on either side of this divide either; it would depend a lot on how it is done. Though doing so with something as base as a class is a recipe for complaints as we are seeing with the current backlash to blue mage in general.

[Luin]

I semi agree with you in the sense that it isn't necessary to lock any class to one side or the other under a system like the one I presented. The goal would be to have both. A balanced one and a diverse/unique one tracked seperately. If something like this was added I would advocate making a traditional version of Blue Mage in the same vein as making a solo version of the other classes. However, I am not entirely against the idea of having some unique content on either side of this divide either; it would depend a lot on how it is done. Though doing so with something as base as a class is a recipe for complaints as we are seeing with the current backlash to blue mage in general.

The better idea is to just make the overworld interesting. You don't need solo/team specs for jobs, you just need overworld content. Doesn't matter how "fun" BLU is, because there's still nothing to do with it.

The entire "BLU only works in solo because it is otherwise imbalanced" is an insult. These are resources that could have just as easily went into making it a functional job. Then they revealed it as a job at fanfest, to people that have been asking for BLU for more than a decade.

Next thing you know, we're going to get FFXIV: Immortal.

[NocturniaUzuki]

It may be a bit of extra work to balance, but here's how to make BLU easily work in party play without ruining it's identity:

You can go out and learn lots of skills. Then you set up to X number of skills into special slots, like role skills. Each ability is balanced (hence the work), but you can only bring X number of skills into a fight. This let's the player CHOOSE what they want to be. Do they want to be a tank? A healer? A dps? Or hybrid? The BLU job icon changes colour based on which role's skills have the most skills slotted. Majority tank-oriented skills? Blue icon.

In addition, BLU can maintain it's monster spell-castinf ability by simply getting hit by enemy attacks while a short shield is up, like with DRK or SAM. For Y seconds after, their shield skill changes to the skill they blocked, and they can cast it at will within that time window. These abilities are less inpactful as the manually learned skills - more akin to how SAM and DRK get a boost from blocking.

[Hyren575]

It may be a bit of extra work to balance, but here's how to make BLU easily work in party play without ruining it's identity:

You can go out and learn lots of skills. Then you set up to X number of skills into special slots, like role skills. Each ability is balanced (hence the work), but you can only bring X number of skills into a fight. This let's the player CHOOSE what they want to be. Do they want to be a tank? A healer? A dps? Or hybrid? The BLU job icon changes colour based on which role's skills have the most skills slotted. Majority tank-oriented skills? Blue icon.

In addition, BLU can maintain it's monster spell-castinf ability by simply getting hit by enemy attacks while a short shield is up, like with DRK or SAM. For Y seconds after, their shield skill changes to the skill they blocked, and they can cast it at will within that time window. These abilities are less inpactful as the manually learned skills - more akin to how SAM and DRK get a boost from blocking.

It's definitely something that could be done to work as a group, though if made solo there is ideally more that could be done since you're less concerned about party interaction. However you are right it definitely could be made to work in a party dynamic. The problem as I see it, though, is that it would be a bandaid on the larger issue of player disengagement long term. There is a limit to what you can do while concerned about party balance and even if you're not the game has simply been around too long and become too established as what it is. If blue mage was made with unique mechanics it would still be attached to the gear treadmill and overall game systems that are fostering many long time players to become bored with the game. A rework would cause too many players to quit because of things they like being changed thus causing a situation where you're pleasing one group to satisfy another and losing players regardless. I would personally love a total rework of the game, done well, that would provide a larger pool of options and builds to be done along the lines of what I presented earlier. A "Realm Reborn Reborn" if you will. Realistically, though, if they are going to do that they would probably just start work on the next FF MMO with a new system from the ground up. I would certainly be excited for that but it doesn't do much to solve the issues with the game we have now.

[diruulth]

because it’s an mmorpg.

[Dzian]

The issue becomes without balance, people will force out certain jobs worse than they already do. This happened in FFXI and happens in WoW frequently. If you play a gimped job, it's basically considered worthless. Adding to these problems is people are going to determine the mathematically superior build and outside slight deviations from it, you will be expected to use said build in harder content. Customization is ultimately an illusion.

that depends. In FFXI for example the issue with a lot of jobs was not the jobs themselves but the enviroment. many of those jobs that were lolled at not because they were considered weak but because of the way in which the enviroment worked. pet jobs for example were generally pretty damn strong but the reason they were often lolled is becasue they fed bosses and mobs so much tp they made fights harder than they needed to be.. this is why even dragoons were lolled. a lot of mobs were weak to piercing damage which would have been ideal for a dragoon but there pets fed so much tp to bosses that they were often shunned.

just changing the way mobs were fed tp within the enviroment would have practically eliminated the lolling of the all of those jobs. without any actual adjustments to the jobs themselves... and thus many of the jobs would have been better balanced just by making that one enviromental change..

if you adjusted the mob variety at the higher levels (pre abyssea) then you would have gone a long way to making casters more desirable. they were generally only shunned at higher levels because virtually every mob at those levels would either silence you, give you amnesia or reflect any magic attacks back at your party.. all of which destroyed casters in higher end parties. again could have been fixed with an enviromental adjustment...

A good enviroment creates balance on its own.. the best and easiest example of this wouldbefirst person shooters. where you might have a guy with close quarters shotguns / smgs. and a guy with a high powered sniper rifle... both of these people have distinctly different strengths and weaknesses and thus it is the enviroment that creates the balance.. a wide open desert for example that sniper is gonna be so over powered the guy with a shotgun wouldnt even stand a chance... however an enviroment such as an office block or something the sniper is going to be at a distinct disadvantage over the other guy... so if you create an enviromnet that encorporates both. you achieve balance.

racing games are another example. you can have super fasst cars that dont handle so great and slower cars with much better handling and traction... in a drag race it's obvious the super fast car will win. on windy backroads though its likely to lose.. so balance is achieved through the enviroment and intelligent track design...

IF XIV hadnt simplified its enviroment so much it could have made jobs incredibly diverse and use the enviroment to achieve balance.. but it's been dumbed down and simplified so much that DPS is literally the only thing that ever matters

[Vaer]

Probably too much work and Q&A to do 15+2(?) jobs when most of them don't have issues soloing in the first place. At that point you could probably make another new job or two. Any existing solo gaps will be filled with the trust system they are adding.

They said it took a year to come up with BLU, AFAIK it's not balanced for party play and it's basically in development and maybe half finished.

I think they actually somewhat beta tested this with the logos system in Eureka. You can make slightly different builds (tanky healer, dps that can heal/raise, etc) and there are some dumb abilities you can play around with but the problem is it's in Eureka.

They could have kept BLU the way it is and added some presets of abilities (balanced for party play - so some skills might be nerfed inside content but fully functional outside) that when all learned would allow you to queue into content but not before that. It would have to be a bit restrictive on what you're allowed to take in (you can equip 24 of them normally after all and there are 49 abilities with more coming) but I think I would take that over something that is only meant for solo.

[Jandor]

Why not make a solo version of every class?

Sure, can we get a multiplayer version of every solo class too?

[Krojack]

One of my main complaints against FFXIV has long been how we don't have customization gameplay. All paladins play the same, all bards play the same, all red mages play the same. We're all cookie cutters of each other. Is it balanced? Absolutely. FFXIV is a fine example of balance. Is it mind numbingly boring? Also absolutely.

Wow had talent trees for years yet everyone still all choose the same talents because those were the best ones. The same would happen here. Everyone would still be cookie cutter of everyone else

[UsagiAndCrepes]

Balance gets thrown around too casually on many games. So it either means you want something to be better or you're actually talking about player investment/reward. Focusing primarily on balance isn't necessary to make a good game in fact, many don't focus on it particularly and are more engaging because they focus on the constantly evolving meta. If characters have more choices and they emphasize the old idea of mixing class features then the meta can evolve so there are several ways to do well and some things work better in different situations, rather than based on job selection. When you lower the skill ceiling on a game you alter the skill-luck axis so you're left with only low skill low luck (one or few optimal ways to play, same gear/skills, rotations) play and high luck low skill (grinding rng) play. That is one way to design a game but it isn't the only way.

However changing the entire game to be more freeform wouldn't work not because of balance but because you're changing the design of the Skinner box which is the safest bet for an mmo. The box is made more comfortable with cosmetics, engaging story, and fostering communities. But more importantly people grow used to it and if you change the fundamental game style, rather than some academic concern like balance, your concern is alienating the existing fans who already like it the way it is.

Having two sets of classes to play would also be a lot of work, for what? You can already (mostly) solo with the other classes. Then you create the question why BLU isn't a full class if other classes can be limited classes, and if BLU is a full class it has to be cookie cutter like the rest.