BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

[SDaemon]

No ty just balance blue mage if you can do it get FF11 PPl to help with balance would be super funny thy fix it

What? FFXI isn't really a balance I would aspire to and even if XI were an example of good overall job balance the combat system and class designs in XI aren't compatible with XIV. The XI Devs wouldn't have an easy time designing and balancing it around group play here any more than the XIV Devs...

[Fyce]

Game watch: I was there when you announced BLU at NA fanfest, but after everyone was hyped, i started to hear confusion in their voices.
Yoshida: I always had a safety net when i talked about BLU and everytime someone asked about BLU, i said "Well, we can't implement it in the normal fashion. BLU is about learning", but of course, everyone doesn't read interviews.

"I've said it for fours years now, but you don't listen."
Perfect.

Yoshida: I got the community teams around the world to investigate players' reactions to BLU and over 70% of them were positive. Louder voices tend to stand out, but when you check all sorts of social media, the investigations have shown that most people are looking foward to it.

This one is for the "massive outcry" and "a majority dislike it" crowd.

Yoshida:[...] after Stormblood was released, the number of players didn't stagger/drop, and instead increased. This was when we started thinking "We shouldn't stay in our cage and be bound by the word MMORPG. Instead, we should treat it like an Online game that has all sorts of content". By positively and flexibly creating content to make it more "fun", all types of people with different interests can enjoy it. Rather than never implementing it because of stubborn reasons, we decided to base our challenge around "how fun the game play" is.

If you ever thought "this is an MMORPG! Solo content is bad!" or "all jobs should be fitting the mold!", this one was for you.

---

I strongly advise anyone to read the Q&A interview. It's filled with stuff like that.

[Shougun]

Game watch: I was there when you announced BLU at NA fanfest, but after everyone was hyped, i started to hear confusion in their voices.
Yoshida: I always had a safety net when i talked about BLU and everytime someone asked about BLU, i said "Well, we can't implement it in the normal fashion. BLU is about learning", but of course, everyone doesn't read interviews.

"I've said it for fours years now, but you don't listen."
Perfect.

Yoshida: I got the community teams around the world to investigate players' reactions to BLU and over 70% of them were positive. Louder voices tend to stand out, but when you check all sorts of social media, the investigations have shown that most people are looking foward to it.

This one is for the "massive outcry" and "a majority dislike it" crowd.

Yoshida:[...] after Stormblood was released, the number of players didn't stagger/drop, and instead increased. This was when we started thinking "We shouldn't stay in our cage and be bound by the word MMORPG. Instead, we should treat it like an Online game that has all sorts of content". By positively and flexibly creating content to make it more "fun", all types of people with different interests can enjoy it. Rather than never implementing it because of stubborn reasons, we decided to base our challenge around "how fun the game play" is.

If you ever thought "this is an MMORPG! Solo content is bad!" or "all jobs should be fitting the mold!", this one was for you.

---

I strongly advise anyone to read the Q&A interview. It's filled with stuff like that.

1.
I hope he doesn't see that as a get out of jail card, because it's not a good one. I mean if we're playing "I've been saying this for years" then the first time he introduced a job as solo content (many years ago he mentioned blue is hard and may be this way) I immediately responded to those threads with "yeah, how about no" (more words, less blunt but basically that). I also from that point said that I didn't want them to destroy their solo content ideas but I'm not interested in seeing Blue Mage have that restriction. That they can make the content, just don't make it the only part of Blue or allow others into it and still allow Blue into content as a regular job.

If it's a safety net it's a net made out of wet paper. Imo, lol.

2.
I wonder for his investigation if it's the like / dislike ratio on the youtube video reveal of Blue Mage. . . Because the response on the forums is clearly not 70% in favor. Although you'd expect to always see a negative bias on the forums since you come to ask for stuff, if you want to praise then it's just more like silently handing your money off lol.

3.
I don't mind them trying new things but it's disappointing to see them do it to job aspects one may hope to play. Imagine if he did that to Samurai or if he allowed you to role play Viera but only in one zone. On these more popular concepts the forums would be on fire. People who didn't want to play (/main) Blue Mage of course are fine, and Blue Mage isn't as popular as some of the other jobs, but it's still disappointing.\

Edit: I guess we can be edit buddies lol:

Edit: for Shougun just below... As it's pretty much on the same topic and format.

I think it's fair for him to remind people that they do communicate on this kind of stuff. And that's not the first time he basically said "guys, I told you, but you kept asking for it so...". So, as I said, if someone cares enough, they should make the effort to inform themselves and raise their voice before it's too late. I mean, wouldn't you be a bit angry if you warn people about something for years, and then they act surprised when that thing finally happens and they are like "omg I didn't know!"? Putting aside people who dismiss what he said for... reasons (?).

Regarding the 70% thing, they didn't disclose what kind of audit they did. And I highly doubt that Yoshida himself knows the details. That'd be a question to ask to the community team, as they were the ones tasked with doing that. And if you actually do think that people's voice and feedback were being badly or wrongly reported, feel free to ask them. Probably in a dedicated thread or when they do their Q&A stuff.

As for the disappointment thing, well, it's indeed pretty subjective. And if it wasn't BLU, it would be something else, or impact other people. Anyway, it's now clear that they really didn't intent to implement BLU in FFXIV because of its quirks. No matter if people see that decision as valid or not. It's also hard not to say that BLU wasn't a good candidate for that kind of treatment. And if Limited Jobs are a way to see jobs that otherwise would never come to FFXIV, well, better accepting it and try to get the most out of that instead of staying bitter.

1. I get part of what you're saying but hopefully you get what I meant as well. Since I used the silly food analogy before let me get that one back out lol. If I ask for you to make me a sandwich, you being the chef (Yoshi), and the sandwich being Blue. You respond "yeah sure, but it'll have anchovies and pineapple in it". I respond back with "I still want a sandwich but I don't want that one!!!".

Of course you're free to ignore my request and I'm free to say it sucks lol. In this case I haven't tried the solo part and haven't decided if I'll like it or not yet (am waiting), but I /know/ I wanted the duty finder part and so it's a requested but missing ingredient. So what I was saying about his safety net is for those who have listened / heard what he has said so far that he feels he's already covered his bases by telling everyone it's going to have pineapple and I was saying "if that counts as a safety net" then I've already said "your sandwich ingredients are bad" (or in other words "no that's not what I ordered, go back"). And just again I know he doesn't have to design to exactly what I want, or anyone here, but in a place designed for feedback (feedback for the kitchen) - I'm doing just that.

So yea - I know he's pre warned us, but I find his reason for it having to be the solo / side content is not satisfactory. In that I strongly believe it could learn spells and still function 100% balanced in duty finder - with the restrictions I'm sure you've seen me say before. Of course i'm sure you also seen me say that I believe balancing a customized toolkit of over 50+ (100+ they designed so far) is EXTREMELY daunting and just exceptionally unlikely, and probably never balance-able (but I've never asked for that).

2. Absolutely, he's at the top of a shifting mountain and knowing even half of all the exact details of what's down underneath is pretty good. I still doubt that it's that high, assuming every single person polled knew what Blue Mage restrictions were (never to be in current content). I wouldn't be too shocked if it was still 40%+ like the idea, but I'd also suggest that unfortunately Blue Mage is not as popular so it's easy for people to let that job slide into something "other". People for example would be far more likely to flip tables for the jobs more people like (say Samurai or Dragoon). Dark Knight is going to be limited job only! Reason being they think blood magic can't be balanced. Forums on fire lol.

3. Yeah for sure, like Eureka or what have you where some love that old style and others just want to 1.0 Dalamud that section. I mean would you be sad if they at some time later made it have all those limited features and function (fairly, and balanced) in duty finder content? I'm not against weird things but I'm not a fan of limited, as you've probably read I'm for "advanced job" (some call it unlimited but it's not my favorite name).

[Alleo]

They also said how much fun the devs had with Eureka, that they have listened to us after Diadem 1.0 (which we saw in Diadem 2.0 that they truly did not or to someone else). Also they have told us things in interviews before and changed their mind later too..so maybe they should only talk about things in interview that they will also stick with and not change later, this way people might be able to 100% trust what is said there.

Also just because it was not able to be implemented in the normal way does not mean that this was the only outcome. The devs sadly have more than once shown that they are a bit blind to other ideas (glamour book, housing) so maybe they have told themselves that no other way was possible, even though a lot of people do play jobs like redmage even if they are not 100% like other FF ones.

About your quotes: "everyone doesnt read interviews" does not mean "they dont listen", it simply means that most probably wont follow all the interviews (especially since quite a few are jp only..and only have fantranslations) thus they might be surprised about this blue mage. Honestly probably the major amount of players does not read and post in the forum, does not go to fanfests, does not post on social media about their opinion or follow the interviews. And that is probably why he said that not everyone reads interviews, so even if he has stated his opinion on it (and again his opinion can change quite fast...)not everyone will have read them..thus the surprise. But of course you can also read it at "omg the community dont listen"

"Over 70% were positive" Sometimes I really would want to see their numbers, how they get them and how the interpret them. I mean its the same team that says that something is fun for the community just because x amount is doing it while ignoring that maybe other just do it for the rewards and dislike the content. Again we are of couse only the minority because most people will probably not even post about this game somewhere but that also means that until its implemented they also cant say for sure if we are just the loud mop or if maybe other also dislike it. In the end the forums and reddit were always a good little hint about content. And if you have a split everywhere (even if its not that hard of a split like Eureka was..) then I doubt that the majority really is all that positive. But of course it can also happen..but you would still have 30% of them negative. (And again only of those that post)

About the last point: And nobody said that stuff like the carnival shouldnt be in the game at all. They could have still given people this as their solo content which they might even use to introduce more of such content in the future for other jobs.

[Fyce]

-snip-

1. If you (general "you") say that you waited 5 years to main BLU (even if you didn't actually know how it would play in FFXIV), it means that: a) you participate on social media, forums, reddit, whatever, b) you really care and are passionate about the subject.
So, if now you come saying that you didn't actually inform yourself about what's being said about your "favourite job" in 5 years, then I absolutly cannot pity you. That's what I meant when I said that people don't "listen". You have people who are actively participating in the vocal part of the community acting surprised even when there was absolutly no reason for them to be. I'm not talking about those who don't participate or check anything. I'm talking about those who do, but somehow "missed" the information about something they really care about and were "waiting 5 years for it".
In short, if you claim to be caring a lot about something, the least you can do is inform yourself about it.

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"? I know quite a bunch of people who wouldn't. Whatever the case, the "BLU debate" was pretty divisive. And while the "negative" side received more support from vocal people (as the vocal side always does), it clearly wasn't enought to push the balance. There has been a lot of other debates in the history of FFXIV that have been way more heated than that. So, if you want to say that the forums and reddit are a good indicator, well, what I'm taking from it is that most people simply don't care. Most BLU threads are already dead, and reddit didn't see a new popular thread about limited jobs or BLU in quite some time now. I do think it's quite plausible to think that most people are in a "as long as it's fun, it's fine" mindset.

3. If you think that nobody did bring the "this is an MMORPG, I don't want solo content!" argument, then I have to question your reading skills. I've argued against countless people using that already. This very thread has a bunch of good examples.

-----

Edit: for Shougun just below... As it's pretty much on the same topic and format.

I think it's fair for him to remind people that they do communicate on this kind of stuff. And that's not the first time he basically said "guys, I told you, but you kept asking for it so...". So, as I said, if someone cares enough, they should make the effort to inform themselves and raise their voice before it's too late. I mean, wouldn't you be a bit angry if you warn people about something for years, and then they act surprised when that thing finally happens and they are like "omg I didn't know!"? Putting aside people who dismiss what he said for... reasons (?).

Regarding the 70% thing, they didn't disclose what kind of audit they did. And I highly doubt that Yoshida himself knows the details. That'd be a question to ask to the community team, as they were the ones tasked with doing that. And if you actually do think that people's voice and feedback were being badly or wrongly reported, feel free to ask them. Probably in a dedicated thread or when they do their Q&A stuff.

As for the disappointment thing, well, it's indeed pretty subjective. And if it wasn't BLU, it would be something else, or impact other people. Anyway, it's now clear that they really didn't intent to implement BLU in FFXIV because of its quirks. No matter if people see that decision as valid or not. It's also hard not to say that BLU wasn't a good candidate for that kind of treatment. And if Limited Jobs are a way to see jobs that otherwise would never come to FFXIV, well, better accepting it and try to get the most out of that instead of staying bitter.

[Elerus]

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"?

How disappointing. Let's take the exact quote:

"I got the community teams around the world to investigate players' reactions to BLU and over 70% of them were positive."

Now how can this be? Easy. You simply phrase the "investigation" to the players as such: "We are adding a new job for free in our upcoming patch! Blue Mage is slated to arrive in 4.5 and we want to know if you would be interested in more new job content like this?"

Of course the majority are going to answer "yes" to this. It's not Square lying, it's just phrasing the narrative in a way that's favorable to them. Frankly I'm shocked they only managed to get 70%.

Oh? What's that? "B-but Square-san wouldn't do that to me! They'd give a full, unbiased, non-slanted inquiry!"

OK. Let's take a look at the official site which lists the content for the upcoming patch updated just today. Here I'll even link it for you: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/patch/4_5/

Show me where it says Blue Mage is limited. Show me where it lists the downsides and costs of this new job's implementation. I'll answer for you: it doesn't. In fact the page proudly trumpets NEW JOB. Square is framing this in the way that is most favorable to them and honestly - why wouldn't they? They're a company and it's in their best interest to spin their PR to the positive in all circumstances. But to fall for this blatant marketing ploy is really naive. Please try harder in the future.

[BillyKaplan]

Frankly I'm shocked they only managed to get 70%.

Those 30% include those who either watched the fanfest or heard the news

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Those 30% include those who either watched the fanfest or heard the news

You mean people who can't manage their expectations?

[Alleo]

2. Would you question this "70% positive" number if it was "70% negative"? I know quite a bunch of people who wouldn't. Whatever the case, the "BLU debate" was pretty divisive. And while the "negative" side received more support from vocal people (as the vocal side always does), it clearly wasn't enought to push the balance. There has been a lot of other debates in the history of FFXIV that have been way more heated than that. So, if you want to say that the forums and reddit are a good indicator, well, what I'm taking from it is that most people simply don't care. Most BLU threads are already dead, and reddit didn't see a new popular thread about limited jobs or BLU in quite some time now. I do think it's quite plausible to think that most people are in a "as long as it's fun, it's fine" mindset.

3. If you think that nobody did bring the "this is an MMORPG, I don't want solo content!" argument, then I have to question your reading skills. I've argued against countless people using that already. This very thread has a bunch of good examples.

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

A few of the people I know that mentioned something like that you're responded to also laid out / referenced ways to fix these issues though - they havent (not all) simply left the issues where they lie. Some have been asking for the more extreme version but the people I see most frequently are not.


Issue 3: Blue Mage has to learn their skills they're all about learning skills.
Solution: .. ... Let them learn their skills, because of solution 1 we'll have no problem. In fact in the long run blue mage may be cheaper to maintain. Each job getting a quest every 5 levels (or more) that has to be made up in lore, scripted, and then translated into many languages meanwhile blue mage is taking assets already in the game and needs no job quest except if SE wants to add one just because.

Nice list.

Its funny because in the last liveletter they have stated that blue will still have the quests every 5 levels (if I am wrong about that please correct me) and need certain skills to do them...hmmm strange...sounds a bit like a normal job right? Honestly right now nothing really shows me why it had to be restricted. It has normal job quests which could have been used to give them the necessary skills for dungeons (and only unlock the dungeons if they have done them) and these skills from the quests could have been the ones that needed balance..thus blue has a rotation for instances that uses balanced monster skills that were still learned the blue way and outside of dungeons they can use the rest of the skills too. With that you have a blue for all content. Just force the learned quest skills into the bar when you are in a dungeon and problem solved. Since we already saw that they have changed the outcome of bad breath this could have easily be done with the quests skills too.

So what exactly hinders them from going that way? Something which we thought about in that short amount of time while they had years to implement it..

[Fyce]

So people would need to read every single interview for the last few years to show that they care and are passionate? Not simply know of the job from older FF and were looking forward this as a normal job because there was no limited job before? Again, just because Yoshida states something in an interview does not mean that they wont do something else. They have stated quite a bit for housing (like timers would be bad and thus never happen..) and yet here we are with a lot of those things that they said that did not happen that way. When people point these interviews out I remember that quite a few posters stated that they are allowed to change their opinion. Yet suddenly with Blue its quite obvious that they stated it a certain way thus people are not allowed to be annoyed about it?

I just think it's hypocritical to be someone active on forums, reddit and other social media for years, claiming to have waited to "main BLU for 5 years", but either not doing some research on what was said about it, or dismissing it as "they said it but I don't believe it". Have they ever said something and did something else? Yes. But the opposite is also true. They already said things and did said things. So, thinking that BLU was going to be implemented as a regular job when they specifically stated otherwise is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

Yes I honestly would question a lot of numbers from them especially after things like Eureka and Diadem. Numbers without a way to check them, especially from companies are often just pure PR and I doubt that they would ever go around and say in an interview that the community was split on this.

If you don't believe official numbers and think that they are lying, that's your own problem. If they are satisfied with the feedback they got for their game and its features, that's their business. The only thing you can do is complain and vote with your wallet if you are not satisfied. But you believing their numbers or not is really not something they care about I'm afraid.

My reading skills are fine. People are against the solo part when it involves the job not being able to play current content, I have never once in these discussions read that people dont want the carnival to happen..and that is probably the truest part of the "solo job" advertisement anyway..since you need other people to clear dungeons and primaes..(so its not even a true solo job anyway and can only be used in old content)

Why do you insist on making this about people asking to remove the Carnivale? This is absolutly not what I said, and I hoped that my previous answer would put you back on track, but it apparently didn't. My point was about people using the "this is not a single player game, this is a MMORPG" argument to refuse Limited BLU.
So if that strawman could stop, it'd be great, thank you.