Low lvl dungeons on high lvl character. (scaling)

[IchiExorz]

I like the replayability of the older/lower lvl dungeons in FF XIV.
However, one thing that bothers me is how when scaled down we lose all of our skills we learnt past the lvl we get scaled down to.

It's not fun playing with half a class or very few skills or an incomplete rotation.
I understand it's done to not make dungeons too easy.
Wouldn't it be possible to scale down stats lower but we keep our full rotation at our actual lvl?

It would make doing lower lvl dungeons a lot more fun.

[Kurando]

It wouldn't make it fun for new players. I mean you as a higher level would have access to a bigger pool of skills, but the new sprout running for the first time only has a couple of actions. So while you're power playing through all your rotations with all the double weaving, the sprout is just left to do barely anything with minor contribution at all, suddenly it's not so fun for them. Of course some argue it's a good chance to show new players all the cool actions, but considering how quick it is to level up these days, they really don't have to wait long to see them anyway.

I'm not against scaling, but I also don't think it can be done successfully where it's actually fun for everyone in the party.

[IchiExorz]

I mean, that's why the scaling should be adjusted so the new players do about the same damage than the higher lvled ones (i can imagine adjusting the scaling like that isn't easy though.)

And yeah if I as a new player would see someone else do fancy flashy stuff i would be more excited to lvl up faster. Sure it doesn't take "that" long but it's still an incentive to keep going.

[Moomba33]

I'm not sure how they'd scale it.
Imagine a newbie tank with only the first two steps of their gcd aggro combo trying to hold against a dps with a dozen off-gcd attacks.

Edit: I've been hoping that in 5.0 they'll shift around the levels abilities are learned so jobs will feel more complete at lower levels.

[FFgame]

If you do your 70 rotation you shouldn't exceed X damage which is the same as is roughly expected from the the damage your class would do optimally at the level dungeon is at.
I'd still rather they bring the dungeons "up" and rebalance them to max level, add some attacks to bosses and trash nothing fancy. At very least they should have done that to expansion 5 leveling dungeons.

[dragonseth07]

I mean, that's why the scaling should be adjusted so the new players do about the same damage than the higher lvled ones (i can imagine adjusting the scaling like that isn't easy though.)

And yeah if I as a new player would see someone else do fancy flashy stuff i would be more excited to lvl up faster. Sure it doesn't take "that" long but it's still an incentive to keep going.

Okay. So, if I do my level 70 DRG rotation perfectly, I'll do the same DPS as the not-synced guy spamming Impulse Drive.

That's not exactly a fair system. :P

[NocturniaUzuki]

I enjoy playing with Lv 50, 60, and 70 skillsets. And even partials. But frankly, allowing all abilities to be used would break old content horribly. They can't redesign the bosses to function with the new abilities, so it would basically turn MinIL and Sync into Unsync difficulty just out of sheer brute forcing through abilities. Having that many tools at your disposal in a fight designed for only Lv50 skills makes the fight ridiculously easy. I mean, if they want to add it as an option, I'm not against it. But it should by no means be the only way to fight old content. I still want to be able to fight thingd at MinIL with the (mostly) original skillset.

[Terkhev]

Okay. So, if I do my level 70 DRG rotation perfectly, I'll do the same DPS as the not-synced guy spamming Impulse Drive.

That's not exactly a fair system. :P

Tbh it's not like any rotation is much harder than that. But at least you wouldn't end up being NIN with Huton but not Armor Crush or DRG trying to keep up BotD with Fang and Claw without Wheeling Thrust.

I enjoy playing with Lv 50, 60, and 70 skillsets. And even partials. But frankly, allowing all abilities to be used would break old content horribly. They can't redesign the bosses to function with the new abilities, so it would basically turn MinIL and Sync into Unsync difficulty just out of sheer brute forcing through abilities. Having that many tools at your disposal in a fight designed for only Lv50 skills makes the fight ridiculously easy. I mean, if they want to add it as an option, I'm not against it. But it should by no means be the only way to fight old content. I still want to be able to fight thingd at MinIL with the (mostly) original skillset.

The problem is that skill balance sometimes breaks old max level rotations, making it hard to enjoy them.
And what do you mean by "break old content"? If there was a system adjusting potencies based on your currently available abilities (not necessarily max level) so using your optimal rotation results in same DPS as optimal rotation of unsynced player, then nothing would change. No ability would let you somehow break boss mechanics and the "worst" you could do would be having a bit more mobility with some skills.


Personally I'd love such change. I'd even go do leveling dungeons every now and then for fun. Right now it's just such a pain that I even stopped farming clusters on tank.

[NocturniaUzuki]

Tbh it's not like any rotation is much harder than that. But at least you wouldn't end up being NIN with Huton but not Armor Crush or DRG trying to keep up BotD with Fang and Claw without Wheeling Thrust.


The problem is that skill balance sometimes breaks old max level rotations, making it hard to enjoy them.
And what do you mean by "break old content"? If there was a system adjusting potencies based on your currently available abilities (not necessarily max level) so using your optimal rotation results in same DPS as optimal rotation of unsynced player, then nothing would change. No ability would let you somehow break boss mechanics and the "worst" you could do would be having a bit more mobility with some skills.


Personally I'd love such change. I'd even go do leveling dungeons every now and then for fun. Right now it's just such a pain that I even stopped farming clusters on tank.

From a healer/tank perspective, it's incredibly broken, even if they introduced a special way of scaling potencies. Having something like Earthly Star on Lv50 content, even at massively reduced potency is still broken. That tool should not be available. With DPS, it's not such an issue if they just mess with potencies so the overall damage output is the same. But because healing or defensive abilities provide direct rotational advantages simply by being available, rather than by HPS/DPS numbers, the system falls apart.

Regarding NIN without Armor Crush...

How do you think NIN originally played at Lv. 50? Spoiler alert: it didn't have Armor Crush. The rotation changes to account for that. Is it inconvenient compared to Lv. 70? Sure, maybe. But it's not *bad* per say. If it was, you would be admitting that NIN was a "bad" job to play when it was released. And I'm sure lots of NIN mains from back then disagree. They may agree that it's more streamlined now. But they clearly still liked the class back then or they wouldn't have played it.

The odd thing about FFXIV is how with every expansion, they add new skills then lock the old rotations. That in itself is not necessarily an issue. It's actually quite interesting - if also a bit of work to learn to play the one's class three different ways (or more if you count leveling dungeons). The problem is more that they ended up affecting this preservation of the past with job changes in later patches. People argue that this breaks the dungeons as well. It certainly makes minor differences, but it doesn't make anything impossible. Meanwhile, allowing Lv70 tank/healer skills at 50/60 would completely break the fight.

[Terkhev]

From a healer/tank perspective, it's incredibly broken, even if they introduced a special way of scaling potencies. Having something like Earthly Star on Lv50 content, even at massively reduced potency is still broken. That tool should not be available. With DPS, it's not such an issue if they just mess with potencies so the overall damage output is the same. But because healing or defensive abilities provide direct rotational advantages simply by being available, rather than by HPS/DPS numbers, the system falls apart.

While it's a good point, I have to disagree. There are no real heal checks or 1HKO tankbusters in dungeons. Having more tools on tanks and healers would simply translate to less GCD heals, which ends up being a bit more DPS.
Actually, tanks are the best example of why current system is flawed. In lvl 50 alliance raids 2 of 3 can't even do proper OT DPS rotation without gaining bonus enmity.

About NIN: I haven't played it in ARR and tbh I don't regret it. Being "bad" and "inconvenient" are different things ofc. But I'd argue which is worse - I'd rather play badly balanced class than one that's annoying (my opinion) to play.

The thing about dungeon balance is that, there is none. Outside of undergeared players, everyone can pull wall-to-wall 50/60 dungeons and most bosses can be brute forced anyway. Even if giving players all those skills made dungeons easier, I believe the fun gained from having more abilities would still outweigh any loss from potentially trivialised mechanics.