Thread: Blue mage at patch 4.5

I worded my post poorly, that's on me.

What I meant was... if I only did a limited number of my job duties in my current position, I should expect to be replaced. Not the best analogy, granted.

Originally Posted by JBee

I worded my post poorly, that's on me.

What I meant was... if I only did a limited number of my job duties in my current position, I should expect to be replaced. Not the best analogy, granted.

That still doesn't make any sense to how BLU is planned?

Originally Posted by Ilenya

That still doesn't make any sense to how BLU is planned?

One of Yoshida excuses for Blue being limited was that people would kick BLUs from dungeons if they didn't have the right spells, which would happen for any job, and will actually still happen with BLU in party finders since people are absolutely going to find the best 24 abilities that should be used.

Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

One of Yoshida excuses for Blue being limited was that people would kick BLUs from dungeons if they didn't have the right spells, which would happen for any job, and will actually still happen with BLU in party finders since people are absolutely going to find the best 24 abilities that should be used.

It does apply to all jobs, yes. But do you honestly not see a difference between a class where there are maybe 30% of their abilities locked behind (and some of them suck or are situational) and a class that never, ever, will get even the most fundamental amount of abilities without the person going far out of their way to obtain them?! And even THEN many of them are likely to still be situational?!

Blue Mage is in absolutely way worse position in terms of player toxicity than any other class. The question here is not whether that's true but whether it can be fixed.

It can, but that requires time and testing. And honestly...having players do the testing here is far better for all people involved. Players because that way any change can happen far earlier, developers because it's going to be a lot more certain result, cheaper with less development time spent on it in place of stuff that players cannot test properly.

I skimmed the entire thread, and was shocked no one brought up this point:

Originally Posted by YoshiP, paraphrased

Imagine you go to fight Omega M/F. The battle starts, BLU casts Level 5 Death, and it's all over! Obviously, we can't NOT give BLU Level 5 Death, or nerf it against bosses, or the job wouldn't feel like BLU! So, overworld only for you guys!

So, BLU is going to get Level 5 Death, it won't be nerfed, and can be used in the Overworld? That's gonna make Hunts mighty interesting... XD

Having said that, here's my thoughts on Blue Mage as revealed at Fan Festa...

I'm pretty deeply disappointed. I'll play their Blue Mage minigame, and likely enjoy it, but it's frustrating to realize that the devs and YoshiP lack the imagination to make Blue Mage a real, viable job in this game. Folks in this thread have pointed out that Blue Mage as we received it corresponds neatly with comments YoshiP made on the job four years ago, and why HE felt it could not be made to fit in a MMO. The truth is, fans of BLU have been hoping that these past four years would have been time enough for YoshiP to pull his head out of his ass and realize that his vision for BLU is not the only possibility!

YoshiP said himself that everywhere he goes, folks ask for Blue Mage. When is it coming? This alone makes it clear that Blue Mage is a highly desired job. Rather than throwing something together just to make them shut up, he should have found a way to make it WORK. NO player who asked for Blue Mage wanted what we were given. None. Some may be okay with it, and some might actually be enthusiastic about it - but when they asked, they wanted a job that could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with other jobs in this game. They wanted Blue Mage to be their main job, with which they tackled all of the game's content that interested them.

When a job's concept does not perfectly align with the game's design, you alter the concept to fit. This has already been done with MANY jobs in this game - SMN as a DoT specialist with only three summons, Dark Knight as a tank without and form of self-harm, Bard as an archer with only a handful of musical buffs - all of these are pretty significant departures from the jobs as we've known them in other Final Fantasy games. And yes, some players were disappointed with these changes. Blue Mage should have been no different; there are many, many ways it could fit into the game while still being recognizable as a Blue Mage - and yes, the changes needed would have alienated SOME fans of Blue Mage with very particular ideas about the job. For the majority, however, they would understand why the changes were necessary, and accept them.

The concern that parties wouldn't accept BLUs without certain spells is a crock as well. It's no different than parties refusing jobs that haven't learned all of their job abilities. Do you want a Warrior in your party who does not have Deliverance? A Black Mage who does not know Fire IV? A Scholar whose only curative abilities are Physick and Adloquiem? All of these are possible by avoiding job quests, and no content bars a player who has not completed them! Blue Mages who do not learn important spells will be kicked from parties, it is true - and that is PERFECTLY FINE. Just make those important Blue Magic spells as easy to acquire as other jobs' abilities are, and no one can reasonably complain.

Blue Mage doesn't need to have a bazillion spells from which they "equip" a certain number. The only time in Final Fantasy that BLU has been done this way was in FFXI. Therefore, the argument that it would be too difficult to balance so many spells is moot; as long as the number of Blue Mage spells is less than or equal to the number of abilities other jobs get, they should be no more difficult to balance. The argument that some iconic Blue Magic would be useless in a lot of content (like, for example, no boss would be susceptible to Bad Breath) is also not a good argument, as many jobs have crowd control abilities in spite of the fact that, outside of a few specific mechanics, they are useless in such content (Black Mage's Sleep, for instance, or the Role Action Foot Graze).

There have been many discussion threads over the years talking about Blue Mage and how it could work. A lot of good ideas were put forth, as well as a lot of terrible ideas - but good or bad, it's not hard to see that there's more than one way to look at Blue Mage. It sucks that YoshiP was never able to see that.

Long-winded rant aside, I do have to say that I LOVE the look they chose for Blue Mage. It's very reminiscent of the Final Fantasy V look for the job, and I love the "masquerade" vibe. The use of a cane as a weapon is a classy touch, as well.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

Here are quick easy fixes to the issues you raise

I don't need em. I wrote out thrice or so how it could be fixed with minimum work, without actually changing Blue Mage from what it is. I won't bother writing it down again.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

1) just make it so monsters abilities aren't the only spells of the class (like in FFVIII with quistis),

Blue mages have only Blue Magic. As far as "artistic freedom" doesn't stop them from having some other skills, they will simply not be numerous enough to make a serious difference. Even if we'll assume they'll get ten of them, it's still way too many skills lacking. And if you'll add more then you may as well make another job entirely.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

2) just make it so you must have X spells learned to join a duty finder group, a damage dealing spell will be a damage dealing spell, no matter what it is, with how the battle system is designed, what will change will mostly be the skin's spell,

If that was the case then all this stuff about limiting wouldn't even be necessary. The spells of Blue Mage will most likely contain some unusual spells. Ones that ignore resistances of boss monsters (the video did show Shiva stunned, which is impossible normally), for example. The moment you start banning individual skills, you end up with tons of work. And what's stopping players from stacking the high-cooldown, high-damage spells for a massive burst, either? With twenty skills and ~2,5sec cooldown, that's 50sec of casting massive spells one after another. By that time at least some of them will come off cooldown and the party starts again.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

3) just make it so you need a level X0 job before you can play blu, so you need to have a basic grasp of the game before you can play blu (blu would then be thought as an "advanced" job).

It's already in there. You need lvl50 job and have finished 2.0 main story quest line.

Besides, it doesn't change anything. I've come across people leveling their alt job, with several lvl70 jobs, that didn't show basic understanding of the game or lacking respect for the time of others. I have no faith that these people would go way out of their way to get numerous skills for leveling if they think that others can carry them.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also I don't get this mentality where the game should be designed around players who don't want to progress.

Progress means various things. It doesn't only mean getting to the end-game content and rushing through the Raids and Savage. It means being every time you log in further in something than you were. For certain people it may mean getting a new minion, for another defeating a different NPC in Triple Triad. The purpose of a game is first and foremost to have fun, the means of doing that don't matter...unless you cause grief, that is. I don't get how cooking can be fun, or doing house chores, or eating. I do em cause I need to. There are people that relax by cooking, cleaning or eating. Should I dismiss their way of life just cause it's different than me?!

Originally Posted by Stanelis

In a mmorpg, a bad player will be a bad player no matter the job/system.

But every current job allows a bad player to finish any dungeon in the game...almost. So long as they are trying, that is. Blue Mage does not. If you are a bad Blue Mage player, you literally are useless, therefore you're going to be bashed more often and harder than if you came in with any other job.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

Also, LoL is an incredibly complex game, it doesn't prevent it to be one of the most played game of the decade.

That's completely out of the left field. This discussion is not about complexity of a game. Personally I abhor the dumbing down of everything that Square Enix seems to enjoy. But, again, that have nothing to do with this discussion. If every class had some sort of quirk like that, sure. I'd love that. The bad apples that don't want to learn doing a thing wouldn't be able to go past first two or three dungeons and only the average+ players would be seen in later stages of the game. But as it is, they'd only change from Blue Mage into another class and continue being detrimental to the community for the rest of the game.

Originally Posted by kikix12

*Snip*

It's worth pointing out that pretty much ALL of your observations about BLU depend on design decisions that do not actually need to be made.

All of BLU's abilities are Blue Magic? They don't have to be. Give them utility abilities as well, like an ability that ensures the next Blue Magic spell cast is a guaranteed critical/direct hit, or an Incite ability which forces the target (unless it's immune) to immediately use a special ability (this is useful both for learning Blue Magic, and in general by forcing a critter to waste time charging up a predictable and avoidable aoe rather than auto-attacking). There are all sorts of BLU-appropriate abilities folks could come up with, with a little imagination. Actual Blue Magic should be limited to ten to fifteen spells, with another two or three being added every time the level cap increases. There's no need to have scores of spells with only a certain number equipped at a time; only FFXI ever did that, and 80% of Blue Magic spells in that game were trash (and about half of the remainder were only good because they enabled certain job traits, like Auto-refresh).

BLUs don't have all their spells? Kick them, and deservedly so, just as you would any other job that doesn't have all their job abilities. This situation should be no more common than it would be for any other job, so long as acquiring Blue Magic spells was made no more difficult than acquiring job abilities. "Random chance to learn" can die in a fire; it wasn't fun in FFXI, and it won't be here, either. Make 'em one-and-done, and any BLU that doesn't have their spells clearly doesn't care about their job or gameplay whatsoever, and has no place in difficult content.

Some Blue Magic spells affect even scripted bosses (like stunned Shiva), and therefore will throw off endgame? Don't do that! Seriously, this is the easiest thing to address. Lots of jobs have CC abilities that are nerfed against bosses; BLU should be no different. Just as Sleep is pointless to use on Omega, so should be Bad Breath.

Honestly, it boggles the mind. There's any number of ways that BLU COULD have been added to the game as a fully-fledged job without breaking the game. YoshiP, though, was apparently stuck in this mental vision of what BLU MUST be, which was pretty much incompatible with the game, and rather than tailor his image of the job to fit the game (which is what was done for pretty much every job we DO have, and most notably changed were BRD, DRK, and SMN), he created this bizarre minigame just to make folks shut up.

Originally Posted by Stanelis

Here are quick easy fixes to the issues you raise

1) just make it so monsters abilities aren't the only spells of the class (like in FFVIII with quistis),
2) just make it so you must have X spells learned to join a duty finder group, a damage dealing spell will be a damage dealing spell, no matter what it is, with how the battle system is designed, what will change will mostly be the skin's spell,
3) just make it so you need a level X0 job before you can play blu, so you need to have a basic grasp of the game before you can play blu (blu would then be thought as an "advanced" job).

Also I don't get this mentality where the game should be designed around players who don't want to progress. In a mmorpg, a bad player will be a bad player no matter the job/system. Also, LoL is an incredibly complex game, it doesn't prevent it to be one of the most played game of the decade.

Hell, even pokemon is a game where you need to pick and choose which abilities you want to use, yet it is typically played by children. Please do not think people are idiots.

This. Common sense restrictions alongside the tailored content promised actually puts BLU in perhaps the best spot of any job. To join matchmaking, one must not only have filled out their kit, but also have tested in solo combat, through which they cannot be carried. That itself sets a higher bar for entry than anyone else is open to. Unless each of those solo duties carry goals opposite normal dungeon running (i.e. are all about CC rather than damage burns), your average BLU will most likely have a higher average competency and lesser deviation in competency than other jobs.