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  1. #1
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Edits and Additions to the Above:
    • Added a [Tentative] segment to each of Dragoon, Bard, and Machinist, to describe changes in the event that Disembowel (or any Piercing debuff) no longer applied to anyone but Dragoons.
    • Corrected wording of Dualcast change.
    • Clarified changes to SMN pet actions.
    • Clarified that Direct Hit and Critical Hit no longer receive raid-buff synergy except to/from each other, in a far, far more limited fashion.
    • Underlined resource scaling changes for emphasis. (TP and MP received per player GCD at 20% less per tick to compensate.)
    • Clarified the effect of the Speed stat on particular abilities per job.
    • Revised the adjustment to Wanderer's Minuet and the Bloodletter -> Pitch Perfect stacked hotkey function to as nearly as possible maintain balance despite the change towards symmetry and reduced bloat.
    • Added an enmity reduction component each to Raging Strikes (now Hawkeye) and Wildfire.
    • Readded a lost/forgotten addition to the General Changes - Mechanical and Miscellaneous Changes area: Refreshing or replacing a given buff or debuff with the same will now cause the square root of the previous application's remaining duration to be added to the replacing/refreshing buff or debuff.
    • Monk: Further Form Shift QoL changes. Chakra maximum increased (when in combat). TFC now consumes 1-7 Chakra for 50 potency-per-chakra.
    • Bard: Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon buffed.

    Responses with relevant insight into the shortlist:

    @ Mansion -- last edit Nov. 15, 2:50 PM PST
    Quote Originally Posted by Mansion View Post
    I really like your ideas actually, especially the way you'd give viability to Spell/Skill Speed.
    My two cents on the classes I main :

    RDM
    Dualcast not fading when you go into melee combo : that would be OP. Most of the time if you go 80/80 and have a dualcast, you want to use it to disbalance you mana and get a guaranteed proc on your verflare/verholy. While having a full combo, verholy/flare and verThunder/Aero all this squeezed in your best moments of Embolden... it's too much. And most of the time, you will be using the GCD of that second spell to move into melee range (by corps à corps or regular movement). A dualcast is never lost in that situation.
    This was a description error on my part. Dualcast will not be lost upon sprinting, potting, using duty actions, or beginning to mount or teleport, etc., but will still be lost upon beginning melee combo. Thank you for pointing it out.
    As an abstract addition, I'd love something to get Mana regen (as a bulk or a progressive ticking regen I don't mind), in the RDM kit. Maybe part of Embolden or something... And avoid the chain rez by making rez more expensive for RDM somehow I guess.
    I'd been working on this, but my idea wasn't quite ready for inclusion. I had intended to reduce all mana costs except Verraise by roughly a sixth while decreasing maximum mana by a lesser amount, but I liked the uniquely clean base mana percentiles it already had (i.e. 2.5% on Jolt/Verstone/Verfire). Whether a tack-on effect would work most cleanly within Manafication, the revised Impulse mechanic, or the like seemed a bit too arbitrary for the moment, so I'd not yet included it. I'm leaning towards Impulse, causing each stack to essentially generate 1% base mana, in symmetry with the +1 Black/White mana per stack. This will likely be added in within a couple days.

    SMN
    I'd actually hope that each pet actions can be weaved as oGCD, and not clumsily queued in that little Carbuncle's stubborn AI.
    A mixture of accidental omission and excess complexity for a perfect solution, at least for a shortlist. You'll find that oGCD actions are now by default bar-equipped and pet-adaptive in the SCH description. I've been working to allow for a perfectly reactive pet since ARR without requiring simulcasting (which we will likely never see for engine or design philosophy reasons) or making all pet actions cast-less abilities without a compensatory need for time spent stationary or stutter-casting, but within those restrictions a proper solution can be complex to explain, most nearly analogous with the old Stamina bar of 1.x that depends on stationary time.

    BRD
    I'd add an aggro dump on that action that makes you jump back. Bards would be thankful.
    I'd not included it simply because I nostalgize over a time when kiting was a real thing and I'd run leveling dungeons with 4 Bards. I'm most considering integrating into Battle Voice a way of distributing half of the Bard's enmity to all other party members instead, or similar; they are the voice but the party is their face, so to speak.


    @HyoMin -- last edit Nov. 15, 9:30 PM PST
    Quote Originally Posted by HyoMinPark View Post
    Could I have some elaboration on this? Are you referring to Skill Speed affecting the damage of these abilities? Or are you referring to Skill Speed affecting the cooldown durations of these abilities? Or the proc rate like Critical Hit does now for PP, Bloodletter, and RoD? Or something else entirely?
    Sorry. The elaboration was listed only in the General Changes section, where Skill Speed and Spell Speed were combined into Speed and revised. I will reword that and each similar description slightly to make it clear that it affects only damage.

    I’d rather find another button to share a slot with PP, because you can still use Bloodletter during Minuet (you can get at least 2 off during it, maybe 3 if you time it perfectly—you want Bloodletter on cooldown regardless before you enter Mage’s Ballad so as to not waste a proc, assuming you would still want BRD to proc based on a substat, be it Crit or SkSpeed/“Speed” or even a flat percentage rate). I’d rather see the Minuet button change into PP, since the ability is only available during Minuet. Instead of taking away another oGCD during that window.
    Yes, the change would be nerf to Bard, and slightly more so than I intended. I hadn't finalized the wording. Please see if the new version (which I will post momentarily) is up to snuff, balance-wise. I've removed Pitch Perfect's own cooldown in favor of a "ghosted" cooldown, which cycles every 15 seconds, adding a stack to Repertoire. Swapping into WM with BL/RoD at the ready will convert them to Repertoire.

    This would obviously need to also change to be in line with my above preference. Assuming an ability like this was added. Maybe it could replace Misery’s End? Since that ability is only active at the last 20% of a boss’/mob’s HP?
    I intended it to be the WM equivalent of RoD, less effective than WM at low amounts and greater at high amounts. I'd prefer to offer it more uniqueness, perhaps by making Pitch Perfect a line AoE that deals full damage only to the main target and making Dissonance a mass-DoT, but I've not come up with anything beyond simple choice-matching just yet.

    I’d personally rather see Refresh and Tactician lose their enmity dump, and see BRD (and MCH) receive Diversion instead. Especially since every other DPS job has access to it (and it was originally Quelling Strikes—a BRD skill!). Tying aggro management to a support skill is not something that I’ve ever liked, as I have ended up using Tactician to reduce aggro, and then not had it available when it was actually needed for TP regen.
    I was hasty in including that particular solution. However, as every role is currently allowed 10 and only 10 role actions, I am hesitant to attempt to break that rule except as a last resort.

    Plus, the aggro reduction has proven to not make much of a difference in my experience, since a lot of my aggro problems come after a really good opener, and even after hitting Tactician at various intervals (from 25 seconds to 30 seconds to even 60 seconds), I’ve still climbed right back to the #2 spot on aggro within my next song rotation. This week in O9S, I actually had to use it in the middle of my opener because I got super lucky with PPs and a Barrage+RA, and spent the next 2 1/2 minutes sitting at the #2 spot. Kind of scary. If the cooldown was shorter, it probably wouldn’t be that big of a deal, but I still disagree with the overall notion of tying aggro management to abilities that should be used as party resource support.
    Agreed. We need a Diversion-like solution for the time being. What are we willing to give up for it, though? I am loath to give up Peloton, and losing Palisade would be a massive utility loss, yet any other choice seems, by way of symmetry, even more harmful.

    A better change would be for Repelling Shot to halve enmity like Elusive Jump does, on the same cooldown duration as Elusive (30s) if the developers insist on not giving BRD/MCH Diversion (like every other DPS job). And I would love a fix the animation so that it will not clip your next GCD, but I guess that’s not entirely necessary, since Elusive can also clip/make you lose uptime. Otherwise, delete it. The ability as it is now is completely useless, and most BRD mains I’ve spoken to don’t even have it on their hotbar.
    I'm personally more fine with it being situational and left off many a Bard's bars than I am with it being obligatory, as it still wouldn't really suit it's situation. Gap-makers are for controlling attention more so than undoing it, and by the time there'd be a visible (beyond enmity bars) use for the aggro-dump, your life would already be threatened in using it. It then becomes either redundant, or the equivalent of a key locked in the chest it unlocks. At least with a 12 yalm range and greater reactivity, it could be worth the oGCD when needing to get away from a fool or stunned ally marked for an AoE.
    [Spitball warning] Repelling Shot was gutted with the gutting, rather than fixing, of "Bow Mage", but if a pseudo-cast full draw option were still available to Bard gameplay, I would have loved to double down on this concept by turning into a variable skill that could take, but did not require, a target. If no target were presented, you'd leave a repel point around which you could rapidly return to or switch from one side of to the other. Reactivation moves you about the pinion, pulling you to it and then rapidly accelerating manual movement in a unique animation with additional momentum. If a target were presented, then you would harpoon the enemy with a connected shot then pinning them to the ground through their foot; even once having freed their foot after the very brief bind fades, they'd be leashed to you through the pinion as if via a pulley, allowing you to manipulate the target's movement as if with a tether movement-restricting mechanic that loses HP over movement, but would only break quickly if both parties moved away from each other. Reactivation will attempt to draw the target towards the pulley if moving away or bound you toward and past the target if moving toward it. All this being said, such mechanics would be far more suited to a Ranger than a Bard, if such were ever made.
    I wouldn’t mind seeing instead a Trait Upgrade to Quick Nock at level 50 that upgrades it into Wide Volley. With a higher TP cost, it could come with a slightly higher potency as well. They could also consider making it an AOE combo, with Wide Volley comboing off of Quick Nock, but that’s not really necessary.
    At present, I intend only to offer increased range with increased TP cost, identical to in Heavensward. For maximal efficiency, Quick Nock will still be used. It just doesn't require two keys to choose between them, as the range would have already decided for you before in practice and now in every way.

    I’d like to see something happen with the Warden’s Paeon. It used to be a really good skill back in HW (with Berserk’s Pacification), but now it’s use is limited only to dungeons, or the rare 24-man or 8-man where debuffs are actually cleansable. I’ve wondered if making it a magical damage version of Palisade and making it a role skill would be better. Feels bad when I see Mustard Bomb coming in O11S and can’t help mitigate it (outside of Troubadour Minuet activation when it’s needed for other mechanics). It would also give BRD/MCH a more useful Role Skill, since almost half of ours are so situational they’ve proven to be useless at a higher level (i.e., the “___ Graze” skills—only Head Graze has been used in higher-end content, and for only 1 mechanic during Deltascape and Sigmascape).
    Right now, I think we could have included the effects, or near enough to them, of Warden's Paeon, Palisade, and Nature's Minuet under a single key if not for the rigid manner in which the songs rotate. But such is a complex discussion for a different time. Replacing Warden's Paeon with Palisade would affect balance with Machinist in ways I'm not equipped to handle right now, even if it would happily open a slot for Diversion.

    The Warden’s Paeon — Physical Ranged DPS role skill
    Reduces magical damage taken by a party member by 20%.
    Duration: 10s
    Recast: 150s
    For now, we are still bound by the 10 Role Actions per Role constraint. I'd like to see Role Actions removed entirely, but I'm trying to work within that constraint for the purposes of my suggestions here.

    Something other than a Haste mechanic in Army’s Paeon would be nice as well. I dislike at high skill speeds clipping at 4-stack AP, and the Haste itself is only effective if 1.) you earn all of your stacks very early on during AP (within the first 2 DoT ticks), and 2.) if you allow AP to run its full duration (30s), which BRDs currently do not do in a normal single-target scenario. And the gain is only 1~2 extra GCDs, if I’m remembering the theorycrafting discussion correctly.
    Still working on this. Some of the clipping issues are to be remedied by the changes to Speed (formerly SkS/SpS), but I'm fully aware that the animation time scaling suggestion is the least realistic of the whole lot. I'm still trying to find an equilibrium between a clean tooltip and a functional solution.

    I’ve always liked the idea of seeing AP activate Flaming Arrow on a target when its used, and Flaming Arrow being the mechanic of the song (especially since it’s used as one of the two main AOE songs currently in AOE situations). Flaming Arrow would end when AP is either clipped or the song itself ends. Potency of Flaming Arrow could be adjusted so that it’s not “too OP”, but it would give the song more potential than it currently has.
    Given my love-hate relationship with fire arrow tropes this is perturbingly appealing to me, though I'd like for each song to be of both decent ST and AoE usefulness. Ideally, I'd like AP to be the perfect "setup" song, but that would require, again, a revision of the rigid song rotation system. For now I am considering lingering effects that can roll over into WM or MB, however, over one's you'd be reluctant to drop AP as a result of. I'd prefer it offer changes in gameplay and rotational opportunities over, even if slightly more functional, straight damage.


    @ShinShimon -- last edited Nov. 15, 10:15 PST
    Quote Originally Posted by ShinShimon View Post
    I want Monk QoL to line up with other melee classes. Change buff/debuff/DoT lengths so that the ideal combo is a simple 111>222 (or 111>111>222) instead of an awkward staggered 111>222>112>221>112>222. Let us max Greased Lightning instantly, without relying on a 1-minute cooldown and 3 GCDs; make it last up to 30 seconds; in general, make it as easy to maintain as Blood of the Dragon. Remove the randomness on filling chakras. Remove the fists system, give us 5% more base damage, bake in Wind Tackle/Riddle of Wind, make Riddle of Fire not slow you down.
    I do not think every form of simplified gameplay is QoL. I consider, for instance, what you're suggesting to be fundamentally different from reducing what amounts, necessarily, to button bloat or traps of zero merit. I believe the structure of Monk's buffs and debuffs, and the rotation that results from it, to be of gameplay benefit to the job, and I would be loathe to remove what little nuance and complexity it was allowed to retain relative to Heavensward. I consider Perfect Balance iconic, and expect that you'd see a more dully rigid rotation if all three stacks of GL were granted instantly; I've tried to avoid overbuffing Tornado Kick to the point that it'd be obligatory per 30 seconds, but such a change would amount to exactly that. If such became the sole purpose of Perfect Balance, moreover, you would decimate Monk burst AoE and hamper its versatility. Letting Greased Lightning last 30 seconds would remove the entire point of the combination of Riddle of Earth, Form Shift, and current Riddle of Wind (now, Wind Tackle).

    You are essentially asking that I remove everything that makes me main Monk -- and in a shortlist concerned solely with actual QoL and job balance, at that.

    In typing this I did notice, however, that I'd missed another detail from the General Changes category that should have been included, which would improve Monk QoL indirectly, especially in regard to Demolish, and would better allow for what the Speed changes promised to apply to the job. It is now added and underlined at the section's top.


    @Grimoire -- last editted Nov. 16, 8:23 PST. (Previously accidentally held within another box. My apologies.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimoire-M View Post
    I got it from reading it tbh. You still don't want to drop Enochian and go into the ARR rotation again, but going into ice early isn't as much of a penalty, not using B4 isn't as much of a penalty, and the increased fluidity of ice phase does increase your average DPS. Scathe does see use too still, though I wish they'd gone with letting it proc thundercloud/firestarter. I welcome the idea, just not the final dps numbers. I'd probably start at 30% for AF1 and add 20% for each stack thereafter, but that I think is a boost over the current dps rate. [1] The MP value changes are nice but do very little when you factor in that the next expansion is going to break all of them all over again anyways.

    [2] The bigger problem to me imo is that Mana Shift got a meaningless 'buff' that only affects SMN and Refresh still wasn't nerfed. [3] And all of the casters other than SMN got nerfed, and [4] SMN's issues were just glossed over. The Sic change does nothing. [5] Getting melee combos 6% faster, pushing RDM to use their oGCDs more for a minimal amount of gain and retuning Embolden to be backloaded instead of frontloaded is not gonna make up for losing all of that base damage either. Putting all of that focus on their spike window is not going to help them when they're not guaranteed to see it at specific times. They get one more GCD to flex for it. Big whoop.

    And nothing changed about the actual problems with BRD. [6] Equalizing the dps stats doesn't change that there are crit rate raid buffs and that piercing still exists, boosting crit for BRD just becomes flat out 20% better for them relative to everything else, and around 5% better for MNK, with no actual consideration for secondary stats being put in for the majority of DPS classes, beyond dump Speed. [7] Speed is still the worst stat too. It does nothing to help with base resource management or positively affect rotation timing for most classes and remains doubly worse for healers trying to time pre-casts. Good job. You did it. Nothing changed. [8] BRD and MCH also got a pointless AoE weaponskill range boost, because 'that's what they needed. Bard even got a giant AoE buff in Minuet! The QoL on Flamethrower/Rapidfire and AoE effect on Wildfire on MCH helps but [9] does nothing to close the pre-existing rDPS or skill gap there either. [10] That's a far bigger atrocity when it comes to ranged/caster dps balance at the moment. What gives?

    The only way some of this 'might' be saved is with the right 5.0 boosts, but even that is a long stretch. None of this would help the current situation, at all.
    I do not mean to disregard your opinions, but I want to be sure the complaints were made with full awareness of the places meant to address them. I've since underlined each in the above posts.
    1. The exact MP will vary, but the %base MP will not. At present, many BLM spells almost to follow irrational (in the technical sense) number, as if they were originally set to a different product of factors or with inclusion of Piety effect on casters and have been gradually nudged to the arbitrary and convoluted fractions we see now. So long as the next product given for maximum MP maintains the same involved primes, the smoothed numbers and more sensible %MP counts should remain smooth in 5.x.
    2. Mana Shift has been buffed to anyone whom previously had a lower maximum MP than their target, e.g. from any caster onto a healer (or, say, a RDM onto a SMN/BLM), up to some additional 30% MP generation. This acts the more obvious 25% reduction in recast time, from 120s to 90s. The primary purpose of these buffs is towards providing a substitute for Refresh. Admittedly, Refresh itself maintains its previous power in this regard, but it has at least lost some double-Ranged value despite MCH being an equal recipient to its benefits.
    3. The nerfs to BLM would only be present in the most perfect of fight circumstances. In all others, it was a buff. The changes to RDM are, on the whole, a total (rDPS + pDPS) buff. Note also that SMN lost, in exchange for its QoL changes and greater pet reactiveness, the bug-gimmick of extra Wyrmwaves via cross-class skills.
    4. Which SMN issues have I glossed over, if you may be specific? I will correct what I can without creating further issues in the process.
    5. I must say, I doubt that. RDM was not a low total DPS job even before 4.4 buffs. These are a huge boon to its rDPS. I pulled back on a couple of the potency reversions (namely melee-flare combo), but I honestly worry I may have to come back to it and nerf them again in order not to make RDM the dominant tDPS when played well. I will likely have to undo what I've undone.
      The Corps-a-corps and Displacement changes were made not to force greater apm, but simply to compensate for the increased flexibility (and with it, average frequency) of the melee combo. Perhaps you'd prefer that the melee combo itself accelerated the cooldown timers in order to ensure their alignment?
      The added flexibility should be up into the order of 40 seconds in what would otherwise have been ill-timed generation as forced by downtime, and several GCDs when taken in combination with Impulse and the melee combo B/W Mana cost reduction, not merely a single GCD.
    6. This was addressed directly in a manner following what curtailed Skill Speed back when Selene's Spell Speed / Skill Speed (rather than flat Attack Speed) buffs would otherwise have made it overpowered, provided enough TP inflow. The greater your pre-stat Crit chance/bonus percentile, the less each stat point is worth, such that it equals the same damage increase regardless of raid buffs. I've since underlined this segment.
    7. Speed has particular breakpoints beyond the recommended rotational minimum at which is sees notable and sudden gains in value, especially among Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Dark Knight, Warrior, and Black Mage. On the whole, I believe this is enough to make Speed the most lucrative stat up to certain points, until again one can afford to make the next jump, on a job-by-job basis, while leaving its inherent penalty as small as possible between those points. If I were to, even after increasing ability damage, remove all breakpoints at which its gains are, for a span, less rewarding due to rotational bottlenecks like Life Surge, Hagakure, Wind Tackle, Reload, Quick Reload, and the like, I would doubtlessly make Speed by far the most powerful secondary stat. Worse yet, unless I was willing to desync indirect potency tools like the above from buffs which Speed already improves upon like Raging Strikes, Ley Lines, Riddle of Fire, Dreadwyrm Trance, and the like, I would face both rewarding those durationed buffs doubly (increased frequency and the normal increased value) and would end up with a job who, at high Speed, is desynced from the rest of his or her party. Such would encourage parties to enforce a particular speed rate upon each of their members to ensure raid (de)buff alignment. Put simply, I have considered these issues you mention, but found directly addressing them at the cost of other factors to create a worse overall experience. Such is how I arrived at the compromise I've suggested.

      Additionally, as TP/MP scale with the GCD, Speed would indeed compensate for its own added TP/MP troubles (previously inefficiencies) proportionately.
    8. Dissonance was indeed an overbuff considering the decreased Repertoire waste in Wanderer's Minuet. I've since tuned it back overnight since the original post. I'm under no impression that Grenado Shot or Wide Volley are strictly "needed". However, I don't feel that their removal was at all needed either. The reason given at the time was button bloat, but the game has since introduced key stacking, nullifying that reason.
    9. True, but, should I be seeking to decrease skill gap? It seems like every other good MCH's reason for maining MCH is that they can play it well when so few others can. I'd prefer to see changes of a much larger and more fundamental scale in 5.x, but for now such changes would be more controversial than appreciated, I fear.
    10. Skill gap is, specifically? MCH may have warrant for such a claim, but in five years of daily forum lurking I've only once heard it opined that the ranged and caster roles are divided thematically or practically by their skill required. I will take it under consideration, but, again, it seems out of scope for a balance/QoL thread in mid-expansion. Wide Volley, Grenado Shot, the BLM MP changes, etc., may seem or even be superfluous, but they are also very, very simple to implement. A numbers change to make a significant influence on MCH skillgap may be similarly simple, code-wise, but I lack the expertise on my own to craft it, while the more fundamental changes I have confidence in the success of, if introduced, would not be so simple.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 12-25-2018 at 09:44 PM.

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