Thread: PLD additions for 5.0?

Shield Charge/Rush come to mind as ideas for a PLD gap-closer. And we have sword-n-board enemies that have a sort of gap-closer ability.

I don't expect single target combo weaponskills to have MP costs, but I would be equally surprised if the devs plan to let you Overpower and Total Eclipse with impunity. There are other issues as well. Unmend costs MP. Shield Lob and Tomahawk cost TP. So either all these abilities are going to become free, or they're all going to have an MP cost. It's a bit more nuanced issue than simply "remove all TP costs."

I don't think that battle raises are necessarily a problem if there are limits set on either the number of times that non-healers can battle raise, or the recast time of the spell. That way, it becomes less of an issue of replacing a core healer function, and more of a clutch cooldown that you can use in a pinch.

Refarding raise limitations, sounds good.

Regarding Unmend example, keep in mind that MP-economy is the core of DRK's gameplay on all fronts. Unmend, Unleash and Abyssal Drain are spells, not weaponskills (unmend also offers a chance on free unleash and abyssal drain is effectively 144 potency with darkside). A bloodweapon window without delirium gives about 6000 out of 9480 MP, Delirium extends that and gives 2400 for 50 blood, TBN costs 2400 and gives 50 blood which can be used for Quietus which gives 480mp per enemy hit, double under bloodweapon, syphon strike, sole survivor, salted giving blood...

I could go on rambling. Point is, it doesn't matter for DRK because 480MP is a token number and given the aoe rotation DRK is only gated by TBN's cooldown and it breaking. However its plain pointless adding costs for the sake of having costs on Tomahawk / Shield Lob and Overpower / Total Eclipse. Their biggest cost is them breaking combos (same with melee dps) anyways. If the concern is that great, they can always take off a bit of potency in exchange for free use.

Id be more concerned about what to do with Deliverance Equilibrium's TP effect.

480 MP is 1/5 of a Dark Arts use. It's also the amount of MP restored by a tick of Blood Weapon, and 4x the amount of MP restored by Blood Price. In short, it's not free. Likewise, Tomahawk costs the same amount of TP as Overpower, and Shield Lob and Shield Bash cost double the amount of TP as Total Eclipse. So this infinite supply of axes and shields that you can throw from range isn't free, either.

I think it's a similar question to whether Scathe should be free on BLM. You're taking a potency loss anyways for using it. But there's a psychological effect there as well. You're not supposed to feel good about moving on a caster. Likewise, you're not supposed to feel comfortable moving off the boss on a tank or melee. You might see players toss out one or two Tomahawks when they're doing a mechanic off the boss, but they certainly aren't going to burn their TP dry before they get back.

Either way, I don't think we can easily predict what's going to happen without more information. I think WAR would benefit from operating on a single resource system and not using MP at all, but I could see PLD following a similar route to DRK, given that it already uses a two resource system.

Originally Posted by Lyth

480 MP is 1/5 of a Dark Arts use. It's also the amount of MP restored by a tick of Blood Weapon, and 4x the amount of MP restored by Blood Price. In short, it's not free. Likewise, Tomahawk costs the same amount of TP as Overpower, and Shield Lob and Shield Bash cost double the amount of TP as Total Eclipse. So this infinite supply of axes and shields that you can throw from range isn't free, either.

I think it's a similar question to whether Scathe should be free on BLM. You're taking a potency loss anyways for using it. But there's a psychological effect there as well. You're not supposed to feel good about moving on a caster. Likewise, you're not supposed to feel comfortable moving off the boss on a tank or melee. You might see players toss out one or two Tomahawks when they're doing a mechanic off the boss, but they certainly aren't going to burn their TP dry before they get back.

Either way, I don't think we can easily predict what's going to happen without more information. I think WAR would benefit from operating on a single resource system and not using MP at all, but I could see PLD following a similar route to DRK, given that it already uses a two resource system.

You didn't read carefully enough - nowhere did I state that Unmend was free. I said "chance of free Unleash when using Unmend". The other instance where I said "free" was when I considered a possible nerf for unrestricted AOE usage that previously cost TP.

What I implied is that DRK, unlike WAR and PLD, realistically won't ever run out of resources if you play your cooldowns correctly in AOE situations - "realistically" implying that under more ideal circumstances everything will die BEFORE you run out of Blood for Quietus, Bloodweapon, Sole Survivor MP AND MP for TBN; I've had yet to reach such a moment in any AOE situation throughout playing DRK. DRK fuels his own ranged attacks and AOE without the aid of other party members, PLD and WAR inevitably will run out of TP when using their 120TP weaponskills too much. So DRK is "free" in the sense that it is self-fueling.

Also Total Eclipse is 110TP. <.<

Scathe "feel" analogy is a bit far fetched but I get your point. Getting rid of resource cost of Tomahawk / Shield Lob was more about just baseline removal of resource costs for weaponskills, given the price is the combobreak, a gcd and low potency. Further attaching a cost to them does nothing other than double downing on "avoid using this" just for the sake of having a cost.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't expect single target combo weaponskills to have MP costs, but I would be equally surprised if the devs plan to let you Overpower and Total Eclipse with impunity.

Is anything going to have MP costs? I thought they were combining them (into something new,) not just deleting TP and leaving MP as it is?

As I understand it, TP and MP are going to be merged into a singular MP bar. Which makes sense, because most jobs tend to only use one or the other.

On DRK, for example, the only TP costs come from your base combo actions. So you don't actually manage TP at all. You could convert these to MP costs under the new system if you really wanted to, but it raises a number of issues. For one, it raises questions like "Should Syphon Strike cost MP, restore MP, or both?" It's also worth remembering that the average player in Heavensward struggled with the MP drain from Darkside. Imagine if every one of your combo actions drained MP. Good luck with that.

I think it's a fairly safe bet that combo actions won't have resource costs attached to them.

On WAR, the only abilities that use TP outside of your combo actions are Tomahawk and Overpower. I suppose one way that you could make Overpower free is if you dropped down the potency significantly relative to Decimate and made it generate gauge. But you'd need to offer something equivalent to the other tanks.

I think PLD is slightly more complex because they're really the only tank that uses both TP and MP. In single target, that shouldn't matter too much, especially if Shield Bash gets dropped. In AoE, though, you're potentially going to have Flash and Total Eclipse at odds with each other, where they weren't previously, unless they either drop costs or move some offensive abilities to the Oath gauge.

There are a few ways of resolving this, but we'll see.