Are the numbers too high?

[Rydin]

Nice. Thanks for this. Maybe my numbers were just too high to see significant change. When I did it my VIT was ranging from 280-340 and def from 600-800. Every 100 def gave me a noticeable damage cut. Say I was at 599 def. when I hit 600 I was taking about 30 less. Maybe my VIT was just more than necessary for what I was fighting.

For classes like mages maybe it will be more effective to add alot of VIT because it's not very high to begin with. They would see better results. Could be similiar to int and magic attack. After so much INT it becomes useless unless you raise magic attack. It feels like the whole make the cup taller and fill it in with attack even though SE said it doesn't work that way.

They will probably still tweak stats with future updates so who knows.

Oh and I also find dex to be completely useless for block and parry. Anyone find it different?

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

according to this you should have seen an decrease in damage from an increase in either VIT or DEF until you hit the damage floor

[Allistar]

In Final Fantasy... Most stats capped at 255, and even then you didn't get a stat that high unless you were definitely at level 99... and when you did.. you were ungodly....
At str 255 you were hitting just about everything for max damage

Final fantasy:
Attack on Best weapon: 134
Def on best body piece: 45

Final fantasy II:
Attack on Best weapon: 199
Def on best body piece: 75

Final fantasy III:
Attack on Best weapon: 156
Def on best body piece: 60

Final fantasy IV:
Attack on Best weapon: 255
Def on best body piece: 100

Final fantasy V:
Attack on Best weapon: 180
Def on best body piece: 18

Final fantasy VI:
Attack on Best weapon: 255
Def on best body piece: 128

Final fantasy VII:
Attack on Best weapon: 100
Def on best body piece: 100 (on accessory. no other gear used)

Final fantasy VIII:
Attack on Best weapon: 30
Def on best body piece: No def... VIT capped at 255 and you were God strong

Final fantasy IX:
Attack on Best weapon: 108
Def on best body piece: 62

Final fantasy X:
Attack on Best weapon: Str derived from Sphere Grid... caps at 255
Def on best body piece: Also Derived from Sphere grid... max is 255

Final fantasy XI:
Attack on Best weapon: 137
Def on best body piece: 69

Final fantasy XII:
Attack on Best weapon: 150
Def on best body piece: 61

ok... My decently well geared Lancer has:
Damage output 151
Attack 588
Str 296
Piety 276
Def 541

Def on best body piece in the game: 182 (Sentinel Cuirass)

Those are high numbers that, first of all, are not very typical of what we've come to expect in Final Fantasy

I know all numbers are relative.... But if thats the case.. everything else should also scale up
Take the Cobalt mitt gaunlets that everyone loves to put on gives 3 strength
3 strength.....

but when your damage output is 151, Str is 296 and Attack is 588, how can you convince me that my damage dealer should be wearing gloves that give 3 str?
Why wouldn't I just put on some Level 18 Leather Mitts
I know you're thinking that I can't put Tier IV materia on the Leather Mitts.... so you'd miss out on 30 attack power with a Tier IV heavens fist

But 5 different stats make up your attack... so you'd be missing 5% of 1 of 5 damage stats

whats the point of this thread? what am I saying?
whats the tl;dr?
If the stats are going to be higher... then there needs to be a bigger stat boost from better gear and Materia....


Its why people say gear doesn't matter or stats don't matter
they do... the stats work fine...
but if the content is balanced for my lancer wearing Cobalt Mitt Gauntlets and we've already proven that wearing a level 18 pair of gaunlets is not noticeably worse.... then thats how people go into battle wearing anything

IMO the numbers are definitely too big/exaggerated...in every aspect

[Zangetsu]

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

according to this you should have seen an decrease in damage from an increase in either VIT or DEF until you hit the damage floor

People are testing things at such low stats. 269 is very low VIT. The higher you go past a larger number it starts to change. Well not change but what I think we are doing is capping ourselves. What if it was something like:

2def+1 VIT = 1 damage

At a certain point your going to hit a "cap" because it will be very difficult to meld the stats needed to continue the damage reduction. Has anyone tested something like this? I don't think we're seeing how stats really work yet.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

The increase is objective.. saying that it "goes a long way" is subjective...
I really can't break it down further than that
I'll try again... just for you
the increase is objective....
How important the increase is... that is SUBJECTIVE
http://www.differencebetween.net/lan...nd-subjective/
There you go chief
regardless of what the stats are... saying "A little goes a long way" is the very definition of subjectivity...
I don't understand why that is even being discussed
I bet you love Michael Moore documentaries as well

As far as keeping up... (cute turn of phrase by the way)
I haven't technically refuted ANYTHING anyone has said here...
In fact... every one of my posts is littered with "This is my opinion" or "I prefer" or "Stats aren't broken... I just would prefer...."

So someone trying to convince me that stats work and aren't broken...
I don't know if that is an issue of "me keeping up"
It's me not having to keep up because you're on a different road...

Thanks though

That's all well and good, but you are describing it as if there are several different directions the increase can go in and that there are other viable alternatives. If a little is all you have than the little of what is most potent goes a long way. Instead of attempting to figure me out and label what outside interests I have --which are perfectly fine interests-- you steer away from what is important.

If you want to keep up in a discussion you should know what you're saying first. If what you have said doesn't make sense, which it doesn't, how about you just say that you never thought about it that way. That's what I would do if I were not making sense.

[Zangetsu]

http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

according to this you should have seen an decrease in damage from an increase in either VIT or DEF until you hit the damage floor

Thanks for the link. I was looking it over more carefully and I realized it proved exactly what I'm trying to say. You should do more tests with higher VIT because I don't think there is a cap. I think your capping yourself. More def Started to to have no effect after a point but when I do it with more VIT I get damage cuts all the way to 900 def. There may be a ratio that needs to be kept to keep seeing damage cuts. All that def is useless without more VIT is what I think it may be.

[Rydin]

on MOBs +/-10 levels he was able to control one stat while increasing another and see change the entire time up to 345 VIT

It would take the highest VIT gear and double melds on every applicable piece to hit 400 VIT... It is possible though
maybe we should....
What was your VIT and DEF, what MOB were you fighting and how much damage were you taking when you capped the VIT increase?

If you're really lucky and you could get 5 melds on each applicable piece... plus the right gear... you could get +300 Vitality... for like 560 Vitality on a Glad... I definitely don't see that happening though

[Kaeko]

Ok going to actually respond to Zangetsu's attempt to debunk the testing, specifically on VIT.

In the "initial testing on R52 Mongrels", it shows that for VIT of 178 all the way up to R269, the damage floor or "cap" as you refer to, is the SAME. So going from 178 VIT to 269 VIT did NOT change the cap.

Regarding your belief that we did not test VIT high enough, you are mistaken. You believed that we only tested to 269, but if you look at the post, it CLEARLY states in the actual body of the post AND the conclusions that the tested VIT range was 252 to 345. If you want to make the argument that a tier exists beyond 345 go for it, but going beyond 345 starts to border on the realm of impracticality in game.

Regarding the argument that DEF is somehow tiered (your example of going from 599 to 600 produces a 30 damage decrease)... First of all, we have offered an extremely large data set that would practically flood this thread if we were to post the raw data here. It clearly showed for at least 40 cases that there was a steady linear decline, not some sort of tier function. Not to be snarky or anything but I have never seen you offer any data in any of your posts suggesting anything regarding any stat at any time. Even a basic methodology like what mob, what level, etc. is not present.

We have the same goal in that we want to know how stats work. We offer our methodology in detail so that players like yourself may attempt to debunk it. That is what you are trying to do and we appreciate this. However, in your attempts to debunk it, you offer no alternative that has any test, data, or logical observational conclusion to support your counter-argument. As such, I (with all due respect), personally cannot take your theory(ies) all that seriously. This is not some personal attack on you. I only mean that if you expect us to defend our findings and detail our methods to be picked at, we only ask you produce the same.

****

Regarding the actual topic, I'm happy everyone has differing opinions. I just find it frustrating when they base their opinions of false or generally unproven ideas. If you're going to argue 1 way or the other, at least try to have the most accurate depiction of how things really work before you go at it. I stated this on like the 3rd page of this thread (buried somewhere in there), but

It's like we have to stand up before we can learn to walk - we have to know and AGREE on how stats work before we can complain about how they are broken.

Cheers

[Rydin]

If you want to keep up in a discussion you should know what you're saying first. If what you have said doesn't make sense, which it doesn't, how about you just say that you never thought about it that way. That's what I would do if I were not making sense.

I'm not arguing with you... my point is facts are facts.... interpretation and commentary is not...

Example:
"I ate an entire 10oz. steak today... It was frikkin huge"
or
"I ate this little wimpy 10oz steak today"

neither is wrong...
FACT: You ate a 10oz steak
OPINION: it was either huge or wimpy

thats all I'm saying... Im not saying Eldaena was right or wrong... I'm just pointing out that saying "A little goes a long way" is an opinion
If you're saying that is not an opinion then there is no need to discuss it further because we obviously disagree on what is opinion

[Mychael]

For right now, I think it's mainly people who know what they are talking about roughly and then you trying to keep up. There is no subjectivity in what Eldaena is saying because an increase in HoT is fact. Two tier III healing potency will be at the very least 20 H.Potency which is an increase of 50HP when casting cura. Since we have facts, it is only objective. There are only two directions you can go with healing potency. Forward in an increase of HoT or backward without it.

Saying it's subjective is saying that they colored the statement in attempt to having us believe that it's going somewhere. Once factually it is going somewhere. We know the increase in HP per 1 healing potency now and also there are not many options that are as potent for increasing HoT in the same meldable slots than healer's hand materia. The further increase would be increasing MND, magical critical potency, and magical critical hit rate. Which don't effect the slots of healers hand. This doesn't require feeling and subjectivity. It just is.

What's "subjective" in my opinion (though I can only speak for myself) is that 50 HP to a cura is "a long way." This isn't XI, the HP:MP ratio of my cures is hardly a concern--unless we're talking a big difference (more than a the difference that 50hp/280mp could make). Then, 50 HP is barely anything in this game. When someone's taking damage fast enough--with no downtime to regen your MP--that you're casting so much to worry about the 1 extra cura you could get in after casting 20+ curas, there's probably another healer involved. ^^; Which probably means that the +50HP on your cura went into an overcure, which only served to pull more emnity toward yourself.

In fact, let's say your CNJ has 3000 MP total, and make it 4000 with Blissful Mind/Shroud of Saints. You could fit in 14 curas. Over the course of your full MP pool plus abilities, you have produced 700 more HP with that +50 HP. Admittedly, that doesn't seem like "a long way" to me.

And then, consider that you're paying 1m for those two Healing Hands III materia, or 700k+ for a single Healing Hands IV. (I haven't checked prices in a long time, hopefully they've gone down...) Is that really worth it?

[Eldaena]

I'm not arguing with you... my point is facts are facts.... interpretation and commentary is not...

Example:
"I ate an entire 10oz. steak today... It was frikkin huge"
or
"I ate this little wimpy 10oz steak today"

neither is wrong...
FACT: You ate a 10oz steak
OPINION: it was either huge or wimpy

thats all I'm saying... Im not saying Eldaena was right or wrong... I'm just pointing out that saying "A little goes a long way" is an opinion
If you're saying that is not an opinion then there is no need to discuss it further because we obviously disagree on what is opinion

It is my opinion on significance of the data, not the data itself. Not everyone finds things as important as me. Rydin was correct that my opinion is subjective, but there really was not any reason to say so, since it should be common knowledge that opinions are such. That being the case, however, there is definitely an effect from stats. That is not subjective. I knew what Rydin was saying, and he was correct that my opinion was an opinion. That doesn't change that I still think that stats have a bigger impact than one may think based on the numbers shown.