Are the numbers too high?

[waldo]

Def on best body piece in the game: 182 (Sentinel Cuirass)

Actually cobalt cuirass +1 has 184 defense, more VIT, more HP, and some attack power in the mix too, much better than sentinels cuirass.

[syntaxlies]

Actually cobalt cuirass +1 has 184 defense, more VIT, more HP, and some attack power in the mix too, much better than sentinels cuirass.

even the reg cuirass has more vit then sent. sent is purely a vanity piece.

[Rydin]

Actually cobalt cuirass +1 has 184 defense, more VIT, more HP, and some attack power in the mix too, much better than sentinels cuirass.

even the reg cuirass has more vit then sent. sent is purely a vanity piece.

Yea... I don't care for the sent either... I wasn't really saying it was the best piece... just saying it has the highest base DEF...
I'd use the cobalt NQ over the sentinel...
technically yes... a Cobalt Cuirass +1 has 2 more defense... just for the purposes of this thread the Sentinel was enough to demonstrate my point

[MeeYow]

Warning, Mammoth Post, and I havn't even read past page 9 yet.

Well yea... thats what the thread is complaining about... the stats have been raised... but the bonus from gear and materia hasn't been raised to compensate... The ratio has been skewed
"big base numbers mean big differences are required"
Like +3 Str on gloves? the point is that is not a very big number

That's why materia was put in, +30 str or +40 att gloves are plenty easy to come by. I don't like the stupidly luck based materia myself, but you can't say something isn't there when it is.

Not exactly... The most important damage stat is Damage output... and can't be changed other than actually changing weapons.
Also there may be a MOB in which doubling all damage stats doubles your actual damage... But the percentage increase would change from MOB to MOB

Weapon base damage and varying mobs can be accounted for by varying pre-factors. Simple testing I have done myself with lv1/10/20/30/40/Mog Axes (keeping att and str fixed), shows the base damage effect to roughly be (new base damage)/(old base damage), combined with a factor of 0.5 on physical fractional DD stat increases seems to fix the THM based model to melee well enough. But that's all from only of 30 mins of testing, I'd put more time in if I didn't live and breathe BLM.

Thaum is different. There is no base damage that supersedes all other damage stats
Even still... have you done tests to see how much damage you deal naked as opposed to fully geared on MOBs above your level?

First off, why would I even bother posting if I hadn't? Some of us actually try to understand and benefit from understanding the stat system, rather than making up crap. Here are some simple results I have jotted down on an old txt for the THM on fully geared vs naked on ifrit:

Full gear (50 Samples): Avg Dmg: 675 (Precision to nearest 5) INT 353 MAP 492
No gear (10 Samples): Avg Dmg: 440 (Precision to nearest 10) INT 253 MAP 432

% Increases: INT ~40%, MAP ~14%

So Ignoring cross terms and summing %s, thats 54% increase predicted, the true value is 53% which is a plenty good match for a rule of thumb, especially considering the 1% difference could probably be overcome by going to higher precision. Like I said for melee, half this value, and then multiply by (new wep dmg)/(old wep dmg) gives you a fairly good model for below-cap stat "small" (I haven't actually found an upper bound yet) changes (It may well hold for %s over 100, but I very much doubt it, and the whole idea was based on a Taylor expansion with coefficients weighted inversely with base stats anyway)

No, it's not how the stats work, heck every THM worth their salt already knows stats vary between thunder teirs, let alone mobs. But it is a damn good model considering all you have to do when picking gear is consider "which gives the better increase compared to the base value" rather than spend time doing calculations with Seiks charts. I can't bring myself to go to that much effort every time I go to upgrade a piece of gear when I already have an arbitrary idea of what is better.

Not to be mean but that makes no sense.... stats are relative....
My Att could be 10 or 10 million as long as the MOBs stats were adjusted accordingly, you could make it so you deal and take the same damage you would have with low stats

Swap to a lv1 job, hello relative basis. From there on its all the ratio crap they have in place to let you WS lv1 mobs for 9999 6 times on LNC etcetera.

It... wouldn't... change.... anything.....
Well I take that back... it would make Ifrit all around harder....
But the naked group would still have roughly the same chance as the fully geared
group. why? Because elemental defense is hard to come by and damage stats are not present in the gear... Hence the point of this thread

How much harder it makes it depends on how much higher they make his stats. One thing the player base seems not to have noticed when going about complaining about Ifrit is that most of his damage is magical, and seeing as magic defence isn't a stat any more (was it ever?), they had to make it "doable" or "impossible" which was stupid on their part. If they converted his swipes to being physical damage, I would guestimate (from letting mid 50s mobs smack me around at varying levels of nakedness on GLA) that your reindeer GLA would get hit for around 6K (this is a very rough estimate), but yea, physical defence on a mob that does largely magical attacks isn't worth crap (swipes, sears and WS are magic, and it's not like he does many normal attacks during his swipe>swipe>ws pattern). Heck recently I have been going with a few MRD tank groups because the DD is better and the hate is almost the same with a good well materia-ed(?) MRD.

I understand that... And I agree... it doesn't matter what you wear.... the gains are so small on gear... but honestly the Materia gains are only slightly better and still don't matter as much

Yes, its "only" a factor of 10....?

I am personally in the camp that a fully decked out player should do ~1.5x the damage as a basicly geared player of the same level of skill, if gear ever manages to increase your damage by a factor of more than 2, you are apparently a better source of DPS as two other players combined, which I think is too far. Currently on THM that is what the limit sits at realistically, and on melee if you include the bonus of going from a crafted weapon to an Ifrit weapon, it is about the same.

One thing though, where I am in complete and utter agreement with you, is accuracy being too high. Not solo, where without mog weaps in places like natalan (e.g. soloing the seintel gauntless sentry - although they are high evais mobs) it is actually kindy sucky, but the full party buff makes it utterly broken, I miss 1 shot per 5 stacks of arrows on arc, and I don't think I have ever used Hawkeye. I think the full party accuracy buff needs a nerf, to make melee equip a peice of acc gear (which, given as full pt buff is 10% ~30acc, tiny acc changes make a BIG difference, so there's a start to the kind of stat system you want!). This has nothing to do with wanting to make more use out of my adorable mog weapons.

Edit due to reading page 10!

TBH gear upgrades in FFXIV feel like more of a "jump" in damage than FFXI's ever did. Also if you want to feel like you jump up in damage with every upgrade we'll be doing 20,000 damage a hit in a year or so like WoW which isn't exactly what you want I think I got out of the thread?

I think it's relevant enough, and true enough.

[Kaeko]

Off topic but Ifrit "Swipe" is physical damage that is adjusted by defense. Everything else is fire. "Naked" swipe should be about 1,200ish I think.

[MeeYow]

This is news to me, I always had it down as being magical, I don't tank myself so that was fairly word of mouth as to why it was so consistent. Mobs just above your level seem to do quadrouple physical damage going from 643 to 62 defence (and a smidge of VIT here and there), I'd expect it to be a more significant change on Ifrit.

[Coglin]

Stats are not the reason People can beat Ifrit naked its the fact Ifrit does no physical attacks and everyone has the same amount fire resist so everyone takes the same dmg regardless, honestly tired of telling ppl this. On the other hand you still see an a bigger dmg increase when you max out both of your attack stats for your class like for pgl Str and Int.

Sooooo, then why can one fight pretty much any mob in the game and do DH, and moogle, and any mob they run across naked reasonably as easy as they can in good gear? That kind of makes the whole defence of the ifrit battle naked a moot point.

[Rydin]

This is news to me, I always had it down as being magical, I don't tank myself so that was fairly word of mouth as to why it was so consistent. Mobs just above your level seem to do quadrouple physical damage going from 643 to 62 defence (and a smidge of VIT here and there), I'd expect it to be a more significant change on Ifrit.

Wow.. that was a mammoth post...
Lets see if I can bullet point it on up

1. Yes materia gains are more noticeable than gear gains... I never said the system was broken... I have just repeatedly said that I want gear (and not just materia) to matter. I dont want to be able to put materia on any gloves "FOR WHICH I LIKE THE WAY THEY LOOK" and they be just as strong
Case and point.... Mahogany Pattens are LVL 48... Oak Pattens are LVL 43... You're probably using the Mahogany....
Whats the difference between them???? 2 MP.... 2 FRIKKIN MP? that is what? 1/20th of 1 percent of my buddy Darkstar's total MP on Thaum. Or maybe the peisteskin Crakows of Invoking... they have 10 more HP than the pattens... But wait.. you can't put tier IV materia on the crakows... and the only point of even wearing shoes is the Tier IV Hell's fist... but what shoes you wear??? doesn't even matter in the slightest....

2. You took offense to me asking if you have tested.... YOU may not have posted without testing... but TONS.. and I MEAN TONS of people would... And I don't know you personally... thats why I asked... don't be offended
For your tests... were they all on the same MOB on the same level?
There is no master percentage... It will vary from MOB to MOB and also from 2 of the same MOB who are on different levels....
You may have a 50% damage increase on a lvl 15 MOB and a 10% Stat increase on a lvl 55 MOB... or Vice versa

3. I think you misunderstood what I mean by relative.... If a MOB had 1 million hit points and you were hitting f 1k a swing... its the same as if a MOB had 100k hit points and you were hitting for 100 a swing...
Thats what I mean... Stats are only relative to each other.... If i go to someone who has never played this game and told them my Att stat is 500... that means nothing... they don't know if that is good or bad...
You could go in and make 500000 Att be weak relative to the Monsters stats if you also jack up the MOBs Def and VIT
All stats are relative in that regard... that was my only point

4. Its about personal preference... the melee get no where near a 50% increase from gear... or increasing a stat
All I would want is a bigger difference between Naked and Fully geared... In terms of ALL stats...
Its not about content... because regardless of content... fully geared should be EXPONENTIALLY better than naked...
Thaum is actually the opposite... Use that same fully geared setup but throw on a weathered sceptre... I bet you do that 675 and not the 440. There is just no balance... stats are all over the place.

5. Materia is only slightly better than gear increases

[Choyi]

The game is obviosly suffering from stat inflation and at the same time stat doesnt matter much at all, I'm sure(and truly hope) this is something they will address in the future (2.0 or later).

[Zangetsu]

Complaining damage doesn't increase enough when you raise your STR and ATT power is your first problem. Look up your auto attack bonuses. What your attacking will effect damage too.

Your second problem is thinking stats cap at 280/290.

Materia is key to success.