Are the numbers too high?

[Rydin]

I posted to really pinpoint this argument, but probably digressed too much into Moogle/Ifrit. From what I can gather from your first couple replies, you are stating that somehow the stats being a high number requires the increases to be substantially larger (basically a scaling argument). And the crux of my response is this is a common argument that holds absolutely true in XI mechanics due to how the internal formulas work, but not in XIV.

2 points...
1. the biggest thing I wanted to show with that part was that the stats fully geared and the stats nude were not that different
2. When you have multiple stats that affect 1 aspect (like damage dealing), higher stats mean that increasing any 1 stat has less impact on the whole

Moving to smaller numbers doesn't inherently fix anything other than give the appearance that your +3 X stat is now more meaningful. This is because of linear gain. Let's use ATK and DEF for example since it was brought up in an earlier post. You take a R50 GLA with 650 DEF (basic gear) out to stronghold and he may take around 70 damage a shot from a R50-R52 mob. You increase defense to 750 (a 15% increase in total DEF), and you'll see that damage drop to 35ish (or a 50% decrease in damage). The reason this happens is due to linearity of the formula. For every DEF you add, you get X damage reduction. So the fact you started with 650 doesn't really change anything.

The issue is... Its not working like that
The difference from your base stat to your well geared stat isn't causing huge gains like that
Its not the 70 vs 35 hits.... its the 500 vs 465 hits that really shine a huge light on the inconsistencies of the stats. And thats the problem...
Also... if 650 wasn't "base" and a majority of that 650 was from gear... having 750 def would still cause a 35 hit in this example... but being nude would be a lot more than 70 damage...

The reason I mentioned that the stat formulas were "elegant" has to do with prevention of overpowered builds. Because just about every stat increases so readily with rank, it prevents a player from generally being able to do something crazy like solo an R80 mob (there are still ways to do this, but that's another discussion entirely). It adds inherent balance.

ok... so stat caps are elegant.... I agree.... I would use the term "Beneficial"
but yea... I agree

Specifically regarding your reply, the general 'feel' I get from it is that you want the stat increases from gear to influence the outcome of fights more (correct me if I'm wrong or point me to any specific line you'd want a specific response to). This I think is a valid argument but I would consider that more a function of the fights themselves than stats. From what I gather, what you really want are "gear check" fights in XIV.

To an extent... i guess...
I don't want to have to have the best triple melded gear to beat something... I want to have to use strategy... but I also don't want to be able to beat it nude...
So a gear check in that we need gear... you've got to be wearing SOMETHING
Even if it changes so that those "Base stats" are present in all gear starting at the level 1 stuff.... just so long as when you're naked... You die...
I don't think thats asking too much that we get owned when we go into a fight with a God naked

For instance, if you want the 10 min moogle achievement, you're probably going to need at least a couple of those moderately well geared Ifrit Bow archers. The fastest Moogle time I've seen was 7:42, but you can leisurely complete the non-speed run Moogle in 15+ minutes with half the DD potential. Lots of leeway. If SE had made the fight more difficult (say made it 10 minutes to win, not 10 minutes to get a reward-less achievement), gear would be more of a necessity. The theoretical change I just mentioned here is typically called a "gear check" fight. There are no gear check fights that have additional rewards in XIV right now since speed runs don't reward you with anything in game.

There's more than 1 way to skin a cat (Which in retrospect is a gross cliche')
Here is an example of what I mean....
My crafting tool gives roughly 50% of my total craftmanship and the gear gives another 50%
I notice a big difference when crafting nude or having craftmanship boosted on a magic craftsmanship synth
For DD.... None of the actual gear other than your weapon has any stats that greatly affect how much damage you deal... period... materia or not
Changing the time on the fights is not the answer either...
You can absolutely do the speed run with a bunch of naked, Ifrit Bow Archers....
the thing that makes it tough is not a lack of DPS... its that you're getting hit a little harder so you spend more time healing. When honestly, a bunch of naked archers should get destroyed and not be able to beat it at all, and should do crap damage
I guess what this thread should have been called is "Not enough difference between naked and fully geared, in terms of stats and also real battle conditions"

Perhaps the real push for change should be adding rewards to more difficult side achievements. Take Moogle again. You can win in 30 minutes like normal and have a shot at a weapon. But if you complete the 10 minute achievement, you get another item (I don't know, a crown or something). Can take this further. Say they started keeping track of "record times" like XI did, but at the end of every week, the 8 players that go the best record time got something. This would add incentive to "1-up your competition" while giving casuals wins. But again, this isn't even about stats anymore then.

That really is another issue entirely....

These posts get too long and I know they are a pain to read so I'll cut it off here. I'll end again by just saying it's a community forum so all opinions should be welcome and I respect yours.

At the end of the day... Yoshi-P has his vision
And for a level 50 character fighting a level 55-60 MOB (I know thats such a vague group with a diverse range of enemies with varied stats... so this is not a set-in-stone deal), on average.... I'd like it if it scaled like this:
The MOB hits you
with no gear on you take 100% damage
with Outdated Gear you take 30% damage (that you would have taken nude)
with up to date gear you take 24% damage (that you would have taken nude)
and fully geared and materia you take 20% damage (that you would have taken nude)
edit: I had these numbers higher but I think you should get completely OWNED when nude

When you hit the MOB
Fully geared with Materia you deal 100% damage
Up to date Gear you deal 90% damage (That you would have dealt fully geared with materia)
Outdated Gear you deal 75% damage (That you would have dealt fully geared with materia)
Naked but with the Ifrit weapon or whatever you deal 50% damage (You get the idea)

I know the increases are not percentage based... the percentages are derived from each value relative to the other scenarios
Thats just how I'd expect it to scale...
And obviously on lower level or higher level MOBs the percentages would change being that the formulae do indeed appear to be more linear