Are the numbers too high?

[YuriSan]

ok Yow...

My gear for ARC is really pretty!!



And it provides me with 278 PIE and 280 DEX with just single melds...
I bet i can make gear that will have more than theirs does without looking like... well...
like junk.


Also have in mind that peeps been testing DEX cap and they say it's like 280 lol!

So if that is correct i'd say i'm right on the money!
And well as i said before..
If i have 100 more to a certain stat than the guy next to me while our weapon is the same (same damage stat) and i hit for same damage or less sometimes..
I will just not bother much from that point on with stats.

Base stats should make a noticable difference. and not make people go to parsers to actuallly see it and not bang their head against the wall trying to figure out what the difference between damage, str and attack power is... lmao!

Imma go look for one of the badass Archers on my server and take a pic of him to forever hold hehe...

[MeeYow]

Outside of prehaps stat point allotment, yes, why not ?

Not being a fan of the materia system myself I have nothing against this, I was just checking to make sure. It's not too bad of an idea, but it requires redesigning the entire battle mechanic system, again.

Edit: In defence of the current system (and having already said im not a materia fan) one thing I do like is that the best piece of gear does not necessarily have to be the highest level piece, I liked how in 11 the best item may well be 20 levels below the cap, making people have to think about gear choices rather than just equip all the highest level stuff possible. Could that be worked in?

Skills would still have their own stat modifiers so what may work for a GLD/PLD may not work for a MRD/WAR.

My comment was more aimed at the ideas like pgl being and evasive class etc, which go away when other jobs can equip all of PGLs gear.

Oh and the bit in bold is that I think Ifrit's stats should be raised rather than lowering other peoples. Changing a few mobs seems simpler than changing the entire battle system.

Yuri....cool story bro?

[YuriSan]

Yuri....cool story bro?

Ahh quite indeed it is...

Can u imagine tho?
If DEX caps at 280 all this time??? lmao
How silly would some peeps feel?
All this time sayin "i deal more damage than you cause i have more DEX"
when in reallity it was all in their heads? man...
I got a headache now..

[syntaxlies]

In Final Fantasy... Most stats capped at 255, and even then you didn't get a stat that high unless you were definitely at level 99... and when you did.. you were ungodly....
At str 255 you were hitting just about everything for max damage

Final fantasy:
Attack on Best weapon: 134
Def on best body piece: 45

Final fantasy II:
Attack on Best weapon: 199
Def on best body piece: 75

Final fantasy III:
Attack on Best weapon: 156
Def on best body piece: 60

Final fantasy IV:
Attack on Best weapon: 255
Def on best body piece: 100

Final fantasy V:
Attack on Best weapon: 180
Def on best body piece: 18

Final fantasy VI:
Attack on Best weapon: 255
Def on best body piece: 128

Final fantasy VII:
Attack on Best weapon: 100
Def on best body piece: 100 (on accessory. no other gear used)

Final fantasy VIII:
Attack on Best weapon: 30
Def on best body piece: No def... VIT capped at 255 and you were God strong

Final fantasy IX:
Attack on Best weapon: 108
Def on best body piece: 62

Final fantasy X:
Attack on Best weapon: Str derived from Sphere Grid... caps at 255
Def on best body piece: Also Derived from Sphere grid... max is 255

Final fantasy XI:
Attack on Best weapon: 137
Def on best body piece: 69

Final fantasy XII:
Attack on Best weapon: 150
Def on best body piece: 61

ok... My decently well geared Lancer has:
Damage output 151
Attack 588
Str 296
Piety 276
Def 541

Def on best body piece in the game: 182 (Sentinel Cuirass)

Those are high numbers that, first of all, are not very typical of what we've come to expect in Final Fantasy

I know all numbers are relative.... But if thats the case.. everything else should also scale up
Take the Cobalt mitt gaunlets that everyone loves to put on gives 3 strength
3 strength.....

but when your damage output is 151, Str is 296 and Attack is 588, how can you convince me that my damage dealer should be wearing gloves that give 3 str?
Why wouldn't I just put on some Level 18 Leather Mitts
I know you're thinking that I can't put Tier IV materia on the Leather Mitts.... so you'd miss out on 30 attack power with a Tier IV heavens fist

But 5 different stats make up your attack... so you'd be missing 5% of 1 of 5 damage stats

whats the point of this thread? what am I saying?
whats the tl;dr?
If the stats are going to be higher... then there needs to be a bigger stat boost from better gear and Materia....


Its why people say gear doesn't matter or stats don't matter
they do... the stats work fine...
but if the content is balanced for my lancer wearing Cobalt Mitt Gauntlets and we've already proven that wearing a level 18 pair of gaunlets is not noticeably worse.... then thats how people go into battle wearing anything

ive made this point before. The huge stat numbers in this game means you have to add huge numbers to get increase's. Combined with mix match stats for classes and hidden stat caps, it makes it all kinda over complicated imo.

[Rydin]

OK, so, firstly in regards to the thread title, it's all about fractional differences, big base numbers mean big differences are required, if you can't understand something as basic as that, you are screwed. Higher or lower base numbers makes no odds, its just a ratio. It was done this way for a reason, which I will come back to later.

Well yea... thats what the thread is complaining about... the stats have been raised... but the bonus from gear and materia hasn't been raised to compensate... The ratio has been skewed
"big base numbers mean big differences are required"
Like +3 Str on gloves? the point is that is not a very big number

All damage mechanics within the uncapped stat region seem pretty linear but with varying gradients, it can however be said that if you increase (all of) your damage stats by 50% it averages out to an increase your damage by roughly 50%. The notable exception here is m.acc (and possibly acc) which seem to work on some non linear function of m.acc-m.evais judging by the very steep change in resist rate between 425 and 450 m.acc on Ifrit.

Not exactly... The most important damage stat is Damage output... and can't be changed other than actually changing weapons.
Also there may be a MOB in which doubling all damage stats doubles your actual damage... But the percentage increase would change from MOB to MOB

The problem here as usual is balance, plenty of people complain about their gear not making no difference because they don't understand the system, meanwhile I am running around 1 shotting Sprindiggles on my THM. If you guys get a boost by increasing the base stats on gear, how broken does a decently geared THM become? (None of this is THM specific, but it's my main, what I have done most of my testing on, and the only DD where stats aren't dominated by weapon base damage, so it's pretty much my ideal case study for everything xiv)

Thaum is different. There is no base damage that supersedes all other damage stats
Even still... have you done tests to see how much damage you deal naked as opposed to fully geared on MOBs above your level?

Now, the reason why base stats are in the hundreds and not the tens? It is because of solo-ability, SE made this game so people could reliably hold their own solo, especially on mobs lower than them (compare with 11 where fighting a lv50 mob was almost the same as fighting a level75 one solo for most jobs). This requires the base stats to grow non linearly with level, so that rather than hit a a lv25 mob for 2x what we hit it for at 25, we hit it for 5 to 10x as much. We can see this in game, just go to the wards and look at the base damage values of weapons as a function of level to see that.

Not to be mean but that makes no sense.... stats are relative....
My Att could be 10 or 10 million as long as the MOBs stats were adjusted accordingly, you could make it so you deal and take the same damage you would have with low stats

What I am trying to say here, is you have to look at all aspects of the game, and make sure your change doesn't break other parts. The case in point here is Ifrit. Yes, Ifrit can be done naked, but everyone takes this fact as a rush to say that character stats need to be adjusted, without taking a second to consider how it affects other parts of the game. The correct solution after considering other parts of the game and their balance, is that Ifrit's stats need to be raised.

It... wouldn't... change.... anything.....
Well I take that back... it would make Ifrit all around harder....
But the naked group would still have roughly the same chance as the fully geared
group. why? Because elemental defense is hard to come by and damage stats are not present in the gear... Hence the point of this thread

Honestly the reason base stats on gear are so low-pre materia are exactly for this reason, to allow people to equip items for the visual aspect and then put materia on for stats. I posted what I think is a far better alternative that doesn't screw over raid/NM gear here. However, have you actually parsed against any of these "total idiots"? There are reasonable limits for both cases.

I understand that... And I agree... it doesn't matter what you wear.... the gains are so small on gear... but honestly the Materia gains are only slightly better and still don't matter as much

[Jinko]

Not being a fan of the materia system myself I have nothing against this, I was just checking to make sure. It's not too bad of an idea, but it requires redesigning the entire battle mechanic system, again.

Although I'm not a fan of materia it wouldn't need to change in the example I showed above, it would work the same as now, a way to customise gear.

Would it require redesigning the battle system though ?, as stats would remain roughly the same. (assuming gear was balanced right)

Monsters don't wear armour of course so they would require base stats x level (which is similar to what they use at the moment I think)

The only problem may be that a monster a couple levels above a players armour level may kick their ass, due to a higher gap in stats. (we saw this happen last time they redone the stats) this would also make the game more challenging which is no bad thing.

My comment was more aimed at the ideas like pgl being and evasive class etc, which go away when other jobs can equip all of PGLs gear.

This is true, I guess the team would have to provide more unique items which are situational not only across class but depending on what you are fighting.
for example gear with high fire resistance or gear with class specific bonuses such as high physical evasion

Oh and the bit in bold is that I think Ifrit's stats should be raised rather than lowering other peoples. Changing a few mobs seems simpler than changing the entire battle system.

Raising Ifrits stats would mean he would wipe the floor with people though, unless you change gear to compensate for it.

Of course none of what I suggest is likely to happen as they would have to go back and redesign every piece of armour in the game.

Plus I really can't see Yoshida revisiting the stat system any time soon.

[Karleguarth]

I believe SE not replying these damage calculation threads has its reason,
like Coca Cola doesn't mention what makes its cola its flavor.
The clearer they reveal how a certain stat is influencing the damage calculation,
the more they're leaking out their market competitiveness.

INT does help damage in the case of THM at least,
I have a double melded lightning brand and a circlet which is single melded with INT
there's roughly 50 more damage by Thundara, and without them it's roughly 400 damage on successful hits.
10% more damage here, if every DD can increase their damage by 10%, it's already 10% quicker to kill Ifrit.

And 280 is certainly not the cap of the stats, it's just the cap of the threshold which everyone can approach with single melded gears. My CNJ's Enchanting Potency continues to rise with increasing VIT from 288 to 302, but performance of Protect stops at 288 VIT.. It explains there's a threshold higher beyond I need to reach.

[Rydin]

Although I'm not a fan of materia it wouldn't need to change in the example I showed above, it would work the same as now, a way to customise gear.

Would it require redesigning the battle system though ?, as stats would remain roughly the same. (assuming gear was balanced right)

Monsters don't wear armour of course so they would require base stats x level (which is similar to what they use at the moment I think)

The only problem may be that a monster a couple levels above a players armour level may kick their ass, due to a higher gap in stats. (we saw this happen last time they redone the stats) this would also make the game more challenging which is no bad thing.



This is somewhat true, I guess the team would have to provide more unique items which are situational not only across class but depending on what you are fighting.



Raising Ifrits stats would mean he would wipe the floor with people though, unless you change gear to compensate for it.

Of course none of what I suggest is going to happen as they would have to go back and redesign every piece of armour in the game.

This was my solution... Add t hose base stats to the gear....
You're well geared Lancer has 550 ATT but 500 of that doesn't come from any gear (including weapon)
I say he still can have 550 attack... but make it the other way around... only 50 is base and the other 500 comes from gear
With the stats this high, you'd have to.... 120 Attack from the gloves... 80 from the feet... etc.
So Naked with a weathered spear his attack would be 50
i agree jinko

[Rydin]

I believe SE not replying these damage calculation threads has its reason,
like Coca Cola doesn't mention what makes its cola its favor.
The clearer they reveal how a certain stat is influencing the damage calculation,
the more they're leaking out their market competitiveness.

INT does help damage in the case of THM at least,
I have a double melded lightning brand and a circlet which is single melded with INT
there's roughly 50 more damage by Thundara, and without them it's roughly 400 damage on successful hits.
10% more damage here, if every DD can increase their damage by 10%, it's already 10% quicker to kill Ifrit.

And 280 is certainly not the cap of the stats, it's just the cap of the threshold which everyone can approach with single melded gears. My CNJ's Enchanting Potency continues to rise with increasing VIT from 288 to 302, but performance of Protect stops at 288 VIT.. It explains there's a threshold higher beyond I need to reach.

Every DD can't do this......
Thaums don't have Base Damage output to contend with...
A melee DD cannot increase their Damage 10% without getting a better weapon. I contend that it cannot be done

[Karleguarth]

Every DD can't do this......
Thaums don't have Base Damage output to contend with...
A melee DD cannot increase their Damage 10% without getting a better weapon. I contend that it cannot be done

For now, yes you're right.. I can't increase damage output to overcome the huge effect from weapon base stat..
(I made another thread in ARC section.. which was about the Yew vs Ifrit's Bow)
I'll try those out again in the next patch, maybe with Attack Power focusing gears (which I haven't tested yet) to see how it goes.