Are the numbers too high?

[Coglin]

Stats are not the reason People can beat Ifrit naked its the fact Ifrit does no physical attacks and everyone has the same amount fire resist so everyone takes the same dmg regardless, honestly tired of telling ppl this. On the other hand you still see an a bigger dmg increase when you max out both of your attack stats for your class like for pgl Str and Int.

Sooooo, then why can one fight pretty much any mob in the game and do DH, and moogle, and any mob they run across naked reasonably as easy as they can in good gear? That kind of makes the whole defence of the ifrit battle naked a moot point.

[Firon]

Sooooo, then why can one fight pretty much any mob in the game and do DH, and moogle, and any mob they run across naked reasonably as easy as they can in good gear? That kind of makes the whole defence of the ifrit battle naked a moot point.

Show me a vid after 1.20 where some did moogle or DH naked w/o getting hit for tons of dmg. As a pgl i know attack and DEf stats work fine cause FoF and FoE help me greatly solo mobs 7 lvls above my lvl.

[MeeYow]

OK, so, firstly in regards to the thread title, it's all about fractional differences, big base numbers mean big differences are required, if you can't understand something as basic as that, you are screwed. Higher or lower base numbers makes no odds, its just a ratio. It was done this way for a reason, which I will come back to later.

All damage mechanics within the uncapped stat region seem pretty linear but with varying gradients, it can however be said that if you increase (all of) your damage stats by 50% it averages out to an increase your damage by roughly 50%. The notable exception here is m.acc (and possibly acc) which seem to work on some non linear function of m.acc-m.evais judging by the very steep change in resist rate between 425 and 450 m.acc on Ifrit.

The problem here as usual is balance, plenty of people complain about their gear not making no difference because they don't understand the system, meanwhile I am running around 1 shotting Sprindiggles on my THM. If you guys get a boost by increasing the base stats on gear, how broken does a decently geared THM become? (None of this is THM specific, but it's my main, what I have done most of my testing on, and the only DD where stats aren't dominated by weapon base damage, so it's pretty much my ideal case study for everything xiv)

Now, the reason why base stats are in the hundreds and not the tens? It is because of solo-ability, SE made this game so people could reliably hold their own solo, especially on mobs lower than them (compare with 11 where fighting a lv50 mob was almost the same as fighting a level75 one solo for most jobs). This requires the base stats to grow non linearly with level, so that rather than hit a a lv25 mob for 2x what we hit it for at 25, we hit it for 5 to 10x as much. We can see this in game, just go to the wards and look at the base damage values of weapons as a function of level to see that.

What I am trying to say here, is you have to look at all aspects of the game, and make sure your change doesn't break other parts. The case in point here is Ifrit. Yes, Ifrit can be done naked, but everyone takes this fact as a rush to say that character stats need to be adjusted, without taking a second to consider how it affects other parts of the game. The correct solution after considering other parts of the game and their balance, is that Ifrit's stats need to be raised.

Thats why i laugh at peeps looking like total idiots trying to get many stat points + when instead they can have like 5 less points and actually look awesome...

Honestly the reason base stats on gear are so low-pre materia are exactly for this reason, to allow people to equip items for the visual aspect and then put materia on for stats. I posted what I think is a far better alternative that doesn't screw over raid/NM gear here. However, have you actually parsed against any of these "total idiots"? There are reasonable limits for both cases.

[Rydin]

OK, so, firstly in regards to the thread title, it's all about fractional differences, big base numbers mean big differences are required, if you can't understand something as basic as that, you are screwed. Higher or lower base numbers makes no odds, its just a ratio. It was done this way for a reason, which I will come back to later.

Well yea... thats what the thread is complaining about... the stats have been raised... but the bonus from gear and materia hasn't been raised to compensate... The ratio has been skewed
"big base numbers mean big differences are required"
Like +3 Str on gloves? the point is that is not a very big number

All damage mechanics within the uncapped stat region seem pretty linear but with varying gradients, it can however be said that if you increase (all of) your damage stats by 50% it averages out to an increase your damage by roughly 50%. The notable exception here is m.acc (and possibly acc) which seem to work on some non linear function of m.acc-m.evais judging by the very steep change in resist rate between 425 and 450 m.acc on Ifrit.

Not exactly... The most important damage stat is Damage output... and can't be changed other than actually changing weapons.
Also there may be a MOB in which doubling all damage stats doubles your actual damage... But the percentage increase would change from MOB to MOB

The problem here as usual is balance, plenty of people complain about their gear not making no difference because they don't understand the system, meanwhile I am running around 1 shotting Sprindiggles on my THM. If you guys get a boost by increasing the base stats on gear, how broken does a decently geared THM become? (None of this is THM specific, but it's my main, what I have done most of my testing on, and the only DD where stats aren't dominated by weapon base damage, so it's pretty much my ideal case study for everything xiv)

Thaum is different. There is no base damage that supersedes all other damage stats
Even still... have you done tests to see how much damage you deal naked as opposed to fully geared on MOBs above your level?

Now, the reason why base stats are in the hundreds and not the tens? It is because of solo-ability, SE made this game so people could reliably hold their own solo, especially on mobs lower than them (compare with 11 where fighting a lv50 mob was almost the same as fighting a level75 one solo for most jobs). This requires the base stats to grow non linearly with level, so that rather than hit a a lv25 mob for 2x what we hit it for at 25, we hit it for 5 to 10x as much. We can see this in game, just go to the wards and look at the base damage values of weapons as a function of level to see that.

Not to be mean but that makes no sense.... stats are relative....
My Att could be 10 or 10 million as long as the MOBs stats were adjusted accordingly, you could make it so you deal and take the same damage you would have with low stats

What I am trying to say here, is you have to look at all aspects of the game, and make sure your change doesn't break other parts. The case in point here is Ifrit. Yes, Ifrit can be done naked, but everyone takes this fact as a rush to say that character stats need to be adjusted, without taking a second to consider how it affects other parts of the game. The correct solution after considering other parts of the game and their balance, is that Ifrit's stats need to be raised.

It... wouldn't... change.... anything.....
Well I take that back... it would make Ifrit all around harder....
But the naked group would still have roughly the same chance as the fully geared
group. why? Because elemental defense is hard to come by and damage stats are not present in the gear... Hence the point of this thread

Honestly the reason base stats on gear are so low-pre materia are exactly for this reason, to allow people to equip items for the visual aspect and then put materia on for stats. I posted what I think is a far better alternative that doesn't screw over raid/NM gear here. However, have you actually parsed against any of these "total idiots"? There are reasonable limits for both cases.

I understand that... And I agree... it doesn't matter what you wear.... the gains are so small on gear... but honestly the Materia gains are only slightly better and still don't matter as much

[MeeYow]

Warning, Mammoth Post, and I havn't even read past page 9 yet.

Well yea... thats what the thread is complaining about... the stats have been raised... but the bonus from gear and materia hasn't been raised to compensate... The ratio has been skewed
"big base numbers mean big differences are required"
Like +3 Str on gloves? the point is that is not a very big number

That's why materia was put in, +30 str or +40 att gloves are plenty easy to come by. I don't like the stupidly luck based materia myself, but you can't say something isn't there when it is.

Not exactly... The most important damage stat is Damage output... and can't be changed other than actually changing weapons.
Also there may be a MOB in which doubling all damage stats doubles your actual damage... But the percentage increase would change from MOB to MOB

Weapon base damage and varying mobs can be accounted for by varying pre-factors. Simple testing I have done myself with lv1/10/20/30/40/Mog Axes (keeping att and str fixed), shows the base damage effect to roughly be (new base damage)/(old base damage), combined with a factor of 0.5 on physical fractional DD stat increases seems to fix the THM based model to melee well enough. But that's all from only of 30 mins of testing, I'd put more time in if I didn't live and breathe BLM.

Thaum is different. There is no base damage that supersedes all other damage stats
Even still... have you done tests to see how much damage you deal naked as opposed to fully geared on MOBs above your level?

First off, why would I even bother posting if I hadn't? Some of us actually try to understand and benefit from understanding the stat system, rather than making up crap. Here are some simple results I have jotted down on an old txt for the THM on fully geared vs naked on ifrit:

Full gear (50 Samples): Avg Dmg: 675 (Precision to nearest 5) INT 353 MAP 492
No gear (10 Samples): Avg Dmg: 440 (Precision to nearest 10) INT 253 MAP 432

% Increases: INT ~40%, MAP ~14%

So Ignoring cross terms and summing %s, thats 54% increase predicted, the true value is 53% which is a plenty good match for a rule of thumb, especially considering the 1% difference could probably be overcome by going to higher precision. Like I said for melee, half this value, and then multiply by (new wep dmg)/(old wep dmg) gives you a fairly good model for below-cap stat "small" (I haven't actually found an upper bound yet) changes (It may well hold for %s over 100, but I very much doubt it, and the whole idea was based on a Taylor expansion with coefficients weighted inversely with base stats anyway)

No, it's not how the stats work, heck every THM worth their salt already knows stats vary between thunder teirs, let alone mobs. But it is a damn good model considering all you have to do when picking gear is consider "which gives the better increase compared to the base value" rather than spend time doing calculations with Seiks charts. I can't bring myself to go to that much effort every time I go to upgrade a piece of gear when I already have an arbitrary idea of what is better.

Not to be mean but that makes no sense.... stats are relative....
My Att could be 10 or 10 million as long as the MOBs stats were adjusted accordingly, you could make it so you deal and take the same damage you would have with low stats

Swap to a lv1 job, hello relative basis. From there on its all the ratio crap they have in place to let you WS lv1 mobs for 9999 6 times on LNC etcetera.

It... wouldn't... change.... anything.....
Well I take that back... it would make Ifrit all around harder....
But the naked group would still have roughly the same chance as the fully geared
group. why? Because elemental defense is hard to come by and damage stats are not present in the gear... Hence the point of this thread

How much harder it makes it depends on how much higher they make his stats. One thing the player base seems not to have noticed when going about complaining about Ifrit is that most of his damage is magical, and seeing as magic defence isn't a stat any more (was it ever?), they had to make it "doable" or "impossible" which was stupid on their part. If they converted his swipes to being physical damage, I would guestimate (from letting mid 50s mobs smack me around at varying levels of nakedness on GLA) that your reindeer GLA would get hit for around 6K (this is a very rough estimate), but yea, physical defence on a mob that does largely magical attacks isn't worth crap (swipes, sears and WS are magic, and it's not like he does many normal attacks during his swipe>swipe>ws pattern). Heck recently I have been going with a few MRD tank groups because the DD is better and the hate is almost the same with a good well materia-ed(?) MRD.

I understand that... And I agree... it doesn't matter what you wear.... the gains are so small on gear... but honestly the Materia gains are only slightly better and still don't matter as much

Yes, its "only" a factor of 10....?

I am personally in the camp that a fully decked out player should do ~1.5x the damage as a basicly geared player of the same level of skill, if gear ever manages to increase your damage by a factor of more than 2, you are apparently a better source of DPS as two other players combined, which I think is too far. Currently on THM that is what the limit sits at realistically, and on melee if you include the bonus of going from a crafted weapon to an Ifrit weapon, it is about the same.

One thing though, where I am in complete and utter agreement with you, is accuracy being too high. Not solo, where without mog weaps in places like natalan (e.g. soloing the seintel gauntless sentry - although they are high evais mobs) it is actually kindy sucky, but the full party buff makes it utterly broken, I miss 1 shot per 5 stacks of arrows on arc, and I don't think I have ever used Hawkeye. I think the full party accuracy buff needs a nerf, to make melee equip a peice of acc gear (which, given as full pt buff is 10% ~30acc, tiny acc changes make a BIG difference, so there's a start to the kind of stat system you want!). This has nothing to do with wanting to make more use out of my adorable mog weapons.

Edit due to reading page 10!

TBH gear upgrades in FFXIV feel like more of a "jump" in damage than FFXI's ever did. Also if you want to feel like you jump up in damage with every upgrade we'll be doing 20,000 damage a hit in a year or so like WoW which isn't exactly what you want I think I got out of the thread?

I think it's relevant enough, and true enough.

[Jinko]

MeeYow none of that explains how a naked group can (should be able to) defeat Ifrit.

The reason they can is because base stats are too high, say for example they completely removed base stats and moved them to gear.

A well geared level 50 player would still retain his ability to do the same content solo or otherwise because his stats would be roughly the same as they were before.

However if the same character was wearing no armour or level 25 armour his stats would be much lower meaning he could no longer fight Ifrit naked.

This would solve both issues.
. Gear not providing a decent boost to stats
. Players not being able to kill stuff with insufficient gear or naked.

Of course if you can show evidence that this would break the game please do, obviously not forgetting that gear would be required to compensate for base stats across the board.

I'm not suggesting that base stats be completely abolished as that would be a bit overkill, but they do need to be reduced by 50-75% IMO.

[MeeYow]

Seriously? I put it in bold and everything.

Are you basically trying to say you want every last piece of stat progression to be on equipped gear?

Because almost every piece can be equipped by several classes, there goes that class individuality thing again.

[Jinko]

Seriously? I put it in bold and everything.

Nothing is in bold on my end.

Are you basically trying to say you want every last piece of stat progression to be on equipped gear?

Outside of prehaps stat point allotment, yes, why not ?

Because almost every piece can be equipped by several classes, there goes that class individuality thing again.

Skills would still have their own stat modifiers so what may work for a GLD/PLD may not work for a MRD/WAR.

[YuriSan]

ok Yow...

My gear for ARC is really pretty!!



And it provides me with 278 PIE and 280 DEX with just single melds...
I bet i can make gear that will have more than theirs does without looking like... well...
like junk.


Also have in mind that peeps been testing DEX cap and they say it's like 280 lol!

So if that is correct i'd say i'm right on the money!
And well as i said before..
If i have 100 more to a certain stat than the guy next to me while our weapon is the same (same damage stat) and i hit for same damage or less sometimes..
I will just not bother much from that point on with stats.

Base stats should make a noticable difference. and not make people go to parsers to actuallly see it and not bang their head against the wall trying to figure out what the difference between damage, str and attack power is... lmao!

Imma go look for one of the badass Archers on my server and take a pic of him to forever hold hehe...

[MeeYow]

Outside of prehaps stat point allotment, yes, why not ?

Not being a fan of the materia system myself I have nothing against this, I was just checking to make sure. It's not too bad of an idea, but it requires redesigning the entire battle mechanic system, again.

Edit: In defence of the current system (and having already said im not a materia fan) one thing I do like is that the best piece of gear does not necessarily have to be the highest level piece, I liked how in 11 the best item may well be 20 levels below the cap, making people have to think about gear choices rather than just equip all the highest level stuff possible. Could that be worked in?

Skills would still have their own stat modifiers so what may work for a GLD/PLD may not work for a MRD/WAR.

My comment was more aimed at the ideas like pgl being and evasive class etc, which go away when other jobs can equip all of PGLs gear.

Oh and the bit in bold is that I think Ifrit's stats should be raised rather than lowering other peoples. Changing a few mobs seems simpler than changing the entire battle system.

Yuri....cool story bro?