Can we do something about Secret of the Lily II now?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

For those that don't know, Secret of the Lily II is a trait for WHM that has a 20% chance to reduce the CD timers of Assize or Asylum by 5 seconds if you heal critical HP with Cure I/II.

The trait has always been fairly useless and is largely ignored like the entirety of the Lily System, but now that both AST and SCH has had their CD reduction traits improved, I think it's time to talk about this.

Just like the Lily system, it suffers from being tied to the use of Cure and II. Spells that any decent WHM avoids needing to use. On top of that, it requires a critical heal, and on top of even that, it's a 20% chance to activate. This many layers of RNG on top of a spell we barely use for such a small effect. Most WHMs barely, or possibly never saw this trait in action, as even the rare moment it may work, your CDs should be planned for the fight.


Meanwhile AST gets even quicker access to the now super powerful lightspeed and SCH gets quicker access to Aetherflow simply for using their Aetherflow.

No one brings this trait of WHMs up, and I'm worried that people may have just forgotten about it, but it does deserve a rework to be more useful to the WHM kit. Now that AST and SCH got their QoL, it would be really nice if SE took a look at what they could do with WHMs kit.

[Ghishlain]

Would be nice if Secret of the Lily II generated Lilies off DPS spells. CDR usefulness aside, it would be a step in the right direction just to have more things that generate Lilies under optimized play conditions.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Would be nice if Secret of the Lily II generated Lilies off DPS spells. CDR usefulness aside, it would be a step in the right direction just to have more things that generate Lilies under optimized play conditions.

Exactly. The changes to AST being a massive QoL improvement for players who use the job optimally has me wondering if they'll ever do the same for WHM.
Regardless of what Lilies and the Lily trait currently does, we should at least be able to generate them by playing the job at a high skill level.
Even if they want to keep this pure healer image they have of WHM, just tie the lily generation to regens. Really just anything but Cure I/II.

[Sylvain]

First as you mentionned, the way of triggering lilies isn't desirable. Unless they'd HIGHLY increase boss AA dmg (and by highly I mean a good 100% more if not 200%) to make cure/cureII and related spell viable. (I mean, you'd have to heal more than hots and instant basically), there's no way this triggering process can ever be good.
Second, it reduces the WHM cd, but because of FF14 fight nature's, less cd is rarely useful. Fight are so scripted that having your skill back 10sec before is either not needed or extremely useful (like, without the cd reduction you wouldn't have it for a said mechanic). Unfortunately it's more often than not on the useless side of the spectrum.


The trait does need a rework but it's unlikely something like this will happen before 5.0
We're already at 4.3 and there's no reason to do a proper rework 2 patch before the xpac ends. Even if some people don't want to admit it, WHM are in a good position EVEN with a trash trait. And no, speed run aren't a reason to buff whm. Progression is the only thing that truly matter to S.E (see Lightspeed buff). Being competitive on speed run, something a fraction of the fraction of the savage raider does is not of high concern for them.


I honestly believe the trait will be totally reworked for 5.0. I don't think SE will rework the battle system to the point of making basic heal spam mendatory (I'd love it tho)

What I hope to happen for the lilies system (assuming it's not entirely removed, which could happen since only one spell truly depends on it)

more way of procing, either through StoneIV or Regen
better bonus, instead of a CD reduction perhaps added potency/effect
an effective way to dump excess lilies assuming they add a reliable way of generating some


But seriously I wouldn't hope too much. The AST change on Lightspeed was easier to implement and transformed a largely useless cd to something we can finally use often.
Lilies would need a bigger rework and I don't think this will happen (unfortunately)

The very best that could happen would be the lilies procing from StoneIV but knowing Y.P stand on healer dps, I would really not expect something like this. (but like not at all)





Regarding AST, the access to a quicker lightspeed only becomes "good" with this patch as lightspeed CD has been reduced (and the cd quite enhanced)

The talent reduces the cd on lightspeed by 10sec everytime you use Essential Dignity
For a maximum efficiency Lightspeed should always be in CD and you should use essential Dignity on CD.
However, prior to 4.3 you had very little reason to have LightSpeed on CD since it destroyed your dmg and would only be good in high healing situation for the mp reduction. The ability to have everything instant is rarely the reason you used Lightspeed.

With a CD of 150sec and Essential Dignity on a 40sec, you could, at most, reduces Lightspeed CD by 30sec. In otherword, you bring it to its baseline CD in 4.3.
Reducing Lightspeed cd by 30s has never been something I (or any AST that I know) find exciting or useful.
Unlike the SCH talent which effectively reduces the CD of Aeatherflow by 15sec, more Lightspeed 1 more lightspeed per fgiht is rather useless. There's plenty of fight I don't even press it.

With the reduction of Lightspeed baseline cd to 120, we'll be able to reduce its cd by 20 more secs.
However this time there's more incitive to use Lightspeed on cd / on pull

Still, the trait is rather weak and reduces the cd of a situational skill and for that you need to use another situational skill that I rather keep for emergency or tank burters (and not everytime it's up to reduce lightspeed cd)
And this is the core of the problem, it's reduces the cd of a situation skill and not a core one like Eatherflow.

[KDSilver]

With the reduction of Lightspeed baseline cd to 120, we'll be able to reduce its cd by 20 more secs.

Indeed, but with the new lightspeed, you'll definitly want to align it with CO to get that 10 more sec so, don't really know if that trait is really useful now.

I don't know if it's better to use on CD (90s then with ED uses) or wait for CO.
Maybe by using it on CD, on long fights, we might be able to get one extra lightspeed than if waiting to align it with CO.

[Sylvain]

Indeed, but with the new lightspeed, you'll definitly want to align it with CO to get that 10 more sec so, don't really know if that trait is really useful now.

I don't know if it's better to use on CD (90s then with ED uses) or wait for CO.
Maybe by using it on CD, on long fights, we might be able to get one extra lightspeed than if waiting to align it with CO.

meh, once again the only real mana benefit you'll get from that +10sec is on costy spells such as helios or gravity.
But you'll most likely end up casting MaleficIII with it so you won't save that much mana

I personally think you'll most likely end up waisting more mana than anything by aligning it with CO. CO is usually used on pull and during "burst windows" when you can exploit your cards the most. These moment are usually soft on healing, therefor you'll use LS only to save mana on maleficIII
Not worth it if you ask me (Don't feel forced to point to that one fight where it would be beneficial, I was talking about general case)

I think I'd rather keep it for when I have to rez someone or something like this. At least I'd save 50% on the rez, then the cureII to top the dps.


Anyway, Lightspeed rework is great and the cd finally become something good, but the trait is terrible if not worse than lilies



As for Lilies not relying on RNG to proc, yes this should be a thing.
At least cureII should give a 100% chance.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Anyway, Lightspeed rework is great and the cd finally become something good, but the trait is terrible if not worse than lilies



As for Lilies not relying on RNG to proc, yes this should be a thing.
At least cureII should give a 100% chance.

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

[Sylvain]

10s off Lightspeed everytime you use your ogcd heal, which now is less likely to clip, is fantastic. It's useful, noticeable and give you quicker access to 10s of complete mobility. How is this in any way worse than the Lily trait?

Also not sure if you meant lilies or the Lily trait at the end there, but Cure II has always been a guaranteed proc.

It is bad because Light Speed is NOT something you want on CD at all time
It is not Eartherflow
It is not Draw cards
It doesn't increase your healing
It doesn't increase your dps

It only makes you save mana and, eventually, increase your uptime (which can be considered healing/dps increase but then it needs to be popped at a specific time, not whenever it's up)


It is a situational skill

And this situational skill has it cd shortened by another situational skill.

Complete mobility is nice for BLM, not AST. Again the number of situation where you will need 12sec of instant spell is scarce to not say nearly non existent. AST usually use LightSpeed as a mana saver.
I mean, how many time would you actually need to have 12sec of instant? Beside freeing up 3-4 maleficIII this won't do much.

I'm not saying that Lightspeed is bad, but I'm trying to point that it is not something you're gonna pop whenever it is up.
Think of it a bit like Benediction, you can either use it as an emergency spell or you time it for a specific mechanic, but it is not something you'll use whenever it is up.

Which is why AST trait is, in a sens, worse than WHM trait. Because at the very least the lilies affect something you use all the time. While it might be useless in controlled scenario when you simply farm the boss, during learning having access to more abilities is rarely a bad thing. It is also during learning that you're most likely to use cureII (because we have less gear and people do mistake).

Lilies just really fall short when the fight is perfectly undercontrol. But at this point the same could be said about Lightspeed, beside eventually allowing you to cast 6-9 more MaleficIII throughout the course of a fight it won't do much. And let's be honest, when you're farming a boss 9 MaleficIII is hardly something you need


Finally, last point. I forgot that cureII gives a lilies with 100% chance. Which effectively support your first say "People don't even pay attention to the mechanic"
I don't even know what procs them XD (it's my bad but yeah I don't really look at how many lilies I have)

[Heilstos]

My dear Sharl,

The reduction of the lightspeed by the property "Hyper Lightspeed" is unfortunately no longer so advantageous due to the change in the cooldown. Because through the reduction, the lightspeed no longer fits more tightly with opposition. Now the astrologain has to watch when he pulls the lightspeed.

But a positive aspect is left over Lightspeed and synastry will now be more enjoyable to use. Nevertheless, it should be watched to extend both buffs with Oppotion. Reducing the cooldown of Lightspeed through the property makes it difficult to apply the Oppotion window. Now the property feels like a corrective tool. I take the opinion that hyperlightspeed and Secret of the lily II have landed on the same level of usability.

And as I can read it from the thread. The majority of whitemages are not enthusiastic about the property. For my part, I would have been happy about a reduction of the CD from synastry.

[Sylvain]

We are at 4.4 and the last content has already been cleared.
I don't expect any buff / major change for 4.5 except Qol changes.

I don't see what they could do "now" that could matter.

What I wanna know is what they'll do for 5.0
Znd tbh, I'm expecting an entire rewhaule of the lily system. I think only the name will stay