Would you raid if there was no ilvl?

[Enla]

It's not the ilvl that's barring me from attempting to raid but rather a lack of time or desire. Lowering the ilvl wouldn't increase my desire a single iota, and like KageTokage it might actually negatively impact my desire to do midcore content. Because lemme tell you, setting a minimal ilvl barrier of entry is often a good way of keeping people who simply want to be carrier out of the party. Not /perfectly/ but the parties I've been in that required 5+ ilvls on the minimum tended to be a lot smoother for what is likely a variety of reasons and it rarely had to do with the better damage.

I would however like more things to earn from doing content, as it would likely solve the issue of desire if not the time. Having more reason to do the content never hurts.

[MoroMurasaki]

To be fair I don't pug my Savage clears at this point but if I did this could make me hesitant to do so.

People have a hard enough time living through basic mechanics now, if we let in everyone who wanted to give it a try I would imagine there would be considerably more death. I'm not even just talking about a skill gap (althoigh this would likely be a contributing factor) but more about a stat gap.

When we started doing o10s we had very little info about it. During Middy's Ultimate attack our healers hasn't prepped sufficiently and our group wasn't exactly overgeared so our BRD and NIN just died. I think the only reason the DRG lived was second wind.

Not having enough hp or defense sucks. I can't imagine an open call to everyone who wants to try raiding would leave a pleasant taste in many mouths because apart from the extreme difficulty hike from casual content many would likely just not have the hp/def/mdef to live without constant shielding.

[Kurando]

Definitely if there was no ilvl then there still needs to be some kind of restriction on entering the content, otherwise like Enla mentioned there needs to be some way to barrier less experienced players from the content if they stand to be a liability. I mean even now it's easy to find a player who perhaps cleared something by a very thin line yet feel they are ready to farm and join other parties even though it's clear they weren't ready to do so and needed further practice.

Extra rewards would be nice for any content, don't think there is enough incentive to do some types of activities any anymore aside from the personal achievement of doing it. What do you do after getting a mount from a Primal now and you don't need the gear, so some additional reward would be cool.

[Antonio_Xul]

To me, it's not the iLevel that keeps me away from raiding, but the raiders themselves, plus I don't have time to schedule my play time. I play when I want, not when others want. I have the patience to learn, but not the patience for rude jackasses who get angry at every little mistake in learning parties. It's called a learning party for a reason. Some people learn fast, others don't. I have patience for those still learning, even the slow ones.

[Amethyst_Esp]

To me, it's not the iLevel that keeps me away from raiding, but the raiders themselves, plus I don't have time to schedule my play time. I play when I want, not when others want. I have the patience to learn, but not the patience for rude jackasses who get angry at every little mistake in learning parties. It's called a learning party for a reason. Some people learn fast, others don't. I have patience for those still learning, even the slow ones.

Definitely this. I'd like to try the savage raids but whenever I do try, there's always one or two people who will rudely point out mistakes and begin yelling at everyone then after the second wipe, they'll leave then everyone else will follow and I'm back at square one after accomplishing nothing. I haven't even touched any of the newer savage content yet because my friend and I don't want to deal with elitists who expect everything to be perfect on the first run even if it's a learning party. I'm all for having my mistakes pointed out but there's a right way and a wrong way about it.

[Deithwen]

Definitely this. I'd like to try the savage raids but whenever I do try, there's always one or two people who will rudely point out mistakes and begin yelling at everyone then after the second wipe, they'll leave then everyone else will follow and I'm back at square one after accomplishing nothing. I haven't even touched any of the newer savage content yet because my friend and I don't want to deal with elitists who expect everything to be perfect on the first run even if it's a learning party. I'm all for having my mistakes pointed out but there's a right way and a wrong way about it.

Sure, every raider is an elitist... *rolls eyes*

However, there is a minimum skill level expected in raids, and getting blamed because you don't have that level while raiding is to be expected. But those are mere assumptions.

[MoroMurasaki]

Definitely this. I'd like to try the savage raids but whenever I do try, there's always one or two people who will rudely point out mistakes and begin yelling at everyone then after the second wipe, they'll leave then everyone else will follow and I'm back at square one after accomplishing nothing. I haven't even touched any of the newer savage content yet because my friend and I don't want to deal with elitists who expect everything to be perfect on the first run even if it's a learning party. I'm all for having my mistakes pointed out but there's a right way and a wrong way about it.

I don't mind coming along while you get your feet wet in like o9s or something. My discord is in my signature if you want to reach out.

There are plenty of raiders who aren't like this. PF isnt the most patient place but it also doesn't have to be that bad. The less pugs you've got the better \o/

[azura84]

Definitely this. I'd like to try the savage raids but whenever I do try, there's always one or two people who will rudely point out mistakes and begin yelling at everyone then after the second wipe, they'll leave then everyone else will follow and I'm back at square one after accomplishing nothing. I haven't even touched any of the newer savage content yet because my friend and I don't want to deal with elitists who expect everything to be perfect on the first run even if it's a learning party. I'm all for having my mistakes pointed out but there's a right way and a wrong way about it.

This is a 2.0 argument that has survived over the years and its really not the matchmaking service or the party finder service that's causing problems anymore, it's players lieing. I've recently started doing Savage and Extreme stuff again and I have to say, DF Matchmaking PUGs are always going to be somewhat of a gamble for anyone with low patience (know thyself) BUT so long as you're not being false in your Party Finder description or Duty Finder preparedness there shouldn't be any issues with anyone who joins for clears, It's on us now. Most of those people who join will know exactly how hard the fight is going to be and anyone who's played this game for a year should know the amount of time it can take for players to catch on to mechanics. The DF weeding and PF matchmaking are really very good now so long as you dont lie about your own ability. I'm understanding of people who get upset about others who are not prepared for clear, these people are who get angry are almost always people who have put in the 5+ hours of learning already and when you join a group that claims to be ready at enrage and 4 people die in the first few mechanics it's clear people are just outright lying and that person is in for a lot more work than they bargained for. I'm not saying there is an excuse for being a dick i'm just saying there is usually a good reason for their anger. Ultimately this is a social game and that means interacting with people, people can be awesome but they can be just as awful, you roll the dice sometimes but the developers have come a long way in making this MUCH more reasonable. A good piece of advice: be conservative about your preparedness level and you'll never be disappointed with the party you get.

As for the primary concern of this thread, if you remove item level restrictions it will spell the doom of the current matchmaking. People will be unrestrained which means weeds will hurt que times by being that 1 DPS who isnt geared and then causes the group to fail, and after your party leaves the dungeon because they're incapable of clearing or the tank doesn't have time for it, I just hope you're not the other DPS who's been que'd up for 30+ minutes.

Alternatively I would welcome some kind of "challenge mode" where you enter with an even lower ilvl sync and are asked to defeat the same ex bosses or savage raids, such challenges could reward better with more/better loot. They could branch the dungeons and make them bigger instead of linear, giving us paths to reach certain pieces of gear, bosses that actually provide strain on time limits. There's a lot of things SE could do with the item level and system they have in place, they just need more players to want it but now i'm rambling. No no, don't remove the item level restrictions, that would be madness and there's quite enough of that already.

[HyoMinPark]

Out of curiosity after a discussion with a friend, if there was no ilvl barring you from entering any current end game content - extreme trial or savage, would you be attempting it more frequently, less frequently or not at all and why?


If the rewards were mounts, titles, minions, gear with different status or tokens you could exchange for other gear of same ilvl would you still try to push such content?

Gotta agree with KageTokage on this one—it’s already difficult enough to PUG some of the more involved content (Extremes, Savage) with people that actually do have the gear, and who don’t understand what a basic rotation or opener is; I’d be less inclined to join content where an item level is not enforced. Because who knows what kind of gear they would show up in then. I was once in a Suzaku Ex party where a minimum item level wasn’t set (or it may have been set at the minimum item level required), but we had a tank show up with an i290 Antiquated axe. He was doing about 1,200 DPS. Couldn’t hold aggro after the swaps either.

I’m sure you’ve seen the complaints in the Tales of the Duty Finder thread of tanks and healers showing up in leveling dungeons with weapons/gear from last expansion (or even from ARR). I would not deal with that in content where your damage and performance actually matters. I actually advocate for leveling dungeons to enforce a minimum item level because I’m tired of seeing players in Bardam’s Mettle or Doma Castle in i230/i240 gear (or even worse). Because they just make it harder on the rest of the party, especially if they’re in a tank or healer role and struggle to hold hate or keep people alive.


If there was something that had mounts, titles, minions, or gear that I wanted in it, I’d find friends or a static to run the content with instead of randoms who may be wearing a box-of-chocolates gear set because the game doesn’t try to gate them out of it. Gear doesn’t make a player; as I said above, you can have players in high item-level gear that do less than a tank or healer in terms of damage—but to risk these same people just showing up in worse gear? The thought alone has me cringing.

[24spencer]

people already struggle to break even mediocre dps for their job with an ilvl restriction enforced, i would probably cease pugging entirely if they removed the ilvl restriction; there're enough people who can't even clear in duty complete parties as it is.