SCH needs some nerfs

[MoroMurasaki]

But in the context of AST noct and WHM, AST is still so much better in healing/DPS balance and raid utility, (and that would still be the case for WHM and diurnal AST if the fight allows no shielding).
I see your point though, you mean AST is good but SCH is even better, I kinda agree on that. But I'm repeating myself: that's because SCH is the closest to FFXIV's optimal healing gameplay, while WHM is far behind. I don't see it as a matter of overpower.

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

[Mansion]

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

[MoroMurasaki]

Uuuuh ok now I understand, thanks!
I never actually wondered about the comparison between SCH and AST because they work so well together, thus my position of finding a spot to WHM in that position.

But let's say nerfing SCH oGCD healing potency (such as indom and exco), it will automatically require healing compensation from both healers (more shielding and more top up afterwards for instance, or keep tanks higher than what we currently do), so maybe it will force some GCD heal on the AST and the SCH, and then naturally bring their DPS output a bit down, for that number of GCD. But that still does not make a reliable spot for WHM (or noct AST).

The thing is in a vacuum WHM still has the strongest pDPS of any healer because Stone IV is the highest potency nuke. With a relatively small dps buff to WHM and some more GCD healing coming from AST and SCH I could definitely see WHM pDPS at least making it a reasonable choice to bring instead of a universally regarded detriment.

I think at this point the only potential rDPS that WHM could bring would be the indirect rDPS buff of a faster kill. SE has made it clear that they aren't going to give it any party-boosting ability so the alternative is to make it the true "BLM of the healers" and buff it's own damage instead. A selfish healer may not be meta but it could at least be a reasonable choice instead of a truly questionable one. I say this as someone with a WHM in my static that I love. As much as I would never pressure her to go AST I can objectively see how it isn't doing us any favors.

If we acknowledge that WHM pDPS needs a buff the question then becomes how much of one? That's why I would request SCH specifically be reigned in, to close the gap between the healers to make the requisite WHM buff a smaller one and thus minimize the change to healer dps overall by as much as possible.

Glad I explained well enough though, most of these are typed out quick on my phone at work so I'm glad I got my point across xD

[Jinzhu]

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

In a post before you said SCH brings more pDPS than AST but it doesn't. With the new AST changes in 4.3 and the changes to Miner Arcana in 4.4 AST will bring more pDPS than a SCH with average lord luck. The only reason AST is doing less than SCH in some fights is because they are forced to use the tome weapon for BiS (which isn't really that good Crit/Pie) instead of the raid weapon, while SCHs got a pretty good raid weapon. And ASTs are playing for the party not themselves, if an AST were to play selfishly you'd see a much bigger gap between DPS. I'd say SCH is more balanced than AST in it's current state as well because everything a SCH does has a equivalent exchange(?) system to it. If you want to Indom or Excog you're giving up 150 potency/1200 MP to use them because you're losing an Energy Drain. This is the main reason why SCH abilities aren't used much in the high end environments unless they're saving a GCD which is barely a 70 potency gain.

While ASTs can just use Earthly Star every 60s, Collective every 90s and Essential Dignity every 40s. You overestimate SCHs abilities way too much and underestimate ASTs just by reading your responses and don't really understand just how strong AST is. AST in it's current state is the reason SCHs can get away with not having to GCD heal or use their aetherflow stacks at all because ASTs kit is just so powerful.

SCH needs a nerf on the fairy but that's about it. Everything else in SCHs kit is a double edged sword because you lose potency regardless of what you do.

Nerf embrace or get rid of it and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing and you'd have a pretty well balanced job. A passive single target regen that you can control for the whole fight without the cost of resources is too strong and is the sole reason SCHs are brought aside from the rDPS.

[Ghishlain]

In a post before you said SCH brings more pDPS than AST but it doesn't. With the new AST changes in 4.3 and the changes to Miner Arcana in 4.4 AST will bring more pDPS than a SCH with average lord luck. The only reason AST is doing less than SCH in some fights is because they are forced to use the tome weapon for BiS (which isn't really that good Crit/Pie) instead of the raid weapon, while SCHs got a pretty good raid weapon. And ASTs are playing for the party not themselves, if an AST were to play selfishly you'd see a much bigger gap between DPS. I'd say SCH is more balanced than AST in it's current state as well because everything a SCH does has a equivalent exchange(?) system to it. If you want to Indom or Excog you're giving up 150 potency/1200 MP to use them because you're losing an Energy Drain. This is the main reason why SCH abilities aren't used much in the high end environments unless they're saving a GCD which is barely a 70 potency gain.

While ASTs can just use Earthly Star every 60s, Collective every 90s and Essential Dignity every 40s. You overestimate SCHs abilities way too much and underestimate ASTs just by reading your responses and don't really understand just how strong AST is. AST in it's current state is the reason SCHs can get away with not having to GCD heal or use their aetherflow stacks at all because ASTs kit is just so powerful.

SCH needs a nerf on the fairy but that's about it. Everything else in SCHs kit is a double edged sword because you lose potency regardless of what you do.

Nerf embrace or get rid of it and make Fey Union the only source of single target healing and you'd have a pretty well balanced job. A passive single target regen that you can control for the whole fight without the cost of resources is too strong and is the sole reason SCHs are brought aside from the rDPS.

You should just post on your main =p It might help your argument some more due to respect level, to be perfectly honest~

Also I wish I could AFK during during/after Panto2 but my team will never be that good =p Thanks for the SCH CD advise though earlier. I'm still learning to play the job and it's driving me nuts.

[edit] I'm also going to add here that I feel the reward-to-effort ratio for AST is far too high and needs to be knocked down for the sake of healer balance.

[loreleidiangelo]

[edit] I'm also going to add here that I feel the reward-to-effort ratio for AST is far too high and needs to be knocked down for the sake of healer balance.

So much this. Cards are supposed to add this element of choice to the kit that makes up for a lot of fast casts/instant cast tools and general strength of the AST healer kit, but it's simply not there because of how binary the buffs are. A SCH at least has to think about using their stacks, and even in a raid situation sometimes you have to compensate with your stack usage to get your group out of a tight spot, no matter how well you plan out the encounter. AST doesn't have to do that with cards - there's never a time where you think, "I'll forego AOE Balance here for AOE Bole instead because [reasons]", making the whole concept of 'juggling' AST cards complete hogwash for the most part.

This might be an ugly opinion here, but tbh I feel like AST's original healing strength was fine relative to the utility they brought, it's just that their original card system sucked nuts and the healing aspect was buffed first, then the card buffs came later. Imagine if they fixed all the issues with the card system first, like Shuffle not giving you the same card again and Spear actually being a crit buff instead of the weird CDR gimmick it had, as well as the reduced CDs we got on things like Shuffle and tools like Minor Arcana to seal the deal on making a use out of "dead" draws. Then the card system would be as valuable as it is now, but as a healer AST might have to work a little harder to produce results, instead of gently rolling their face from one side of the keyboard to the next like they do now.

Can't wait to see how SE will ruin Dancer, if the rumors are to be believed that it's the next healer job. /trollface

[Dzian]

So much this. Cards are supposed to add this element of choice to the kit that makes up for a lot of fast casts/instant cast tools and general strength of the AST healer kit, but it's simply not there because of how binary the buffs are. A SCH at least has to think about using their stacks, and even in a raid situation sometimes you have to compensate with your stack usage to get your group out of a tight spot, no matter how well you plan out the encounter. AST doesn't have to do that with cards - there's never a time where you think, "I'll forego AOE Balance here for AOE Bole instead because [reasons]", making the whole concept of 'juggling' AST cards complete hogwash for the most part.

This is a content problem and it's the same problem that affects all the jobs.

content is so heavily scripted and predictable for example that healers know exactly how many heals they'll need to use in the next few minutes and when. tanks know exactly which cooldowns theyll need for which moves and exactly when the boss will do that move.. and everyone knows exactly when mechanics will happen which basically allows them to time there buffs and stuff accordingly. this is why things like blms triple cast get used as a dps increase because blms know for certain they wont have to make any big movements in the next 2 minutes.

This is also why this thread exists. Scholars aren't exactly OP but the problem is when you know for sure exactly how many heals your going to use in the next couple of minutes then it becomes an absolute joke and why not burn all those extra stacks on dps or energy drains.

its also why tanks spend so much time in dps stance because they know exactly when they're going to get hurt and how badly literally minutes in advance. which again makes healing even more predictable and easy to deal with..

AS for ast and its cards the sheer predictability of content is again part of the problem. another part is that basically the only thing that ever matters is DPS. this is why ast will literally never aoe a bole instead of a balance because the incoming damage is so predictable it's quite often healed up before it's even happened.. and these days every job has unlimited TP anyway so spires are basically useless and Ewars dont even work on things like DRK or BLM so they're useless cards as well. iftossing a ewer on a blm allowed them to get off one extra fire 4 now and then would that be so bad.. hell there's time blms jump to ice even though they have a chunk of MP left and could squeeze out another fire..

Its also why whm is shunned so heavily because it has that extra healing power but never needs it. it's so predictable it's virtually impossible to be caught off guard..

if you made fights less predictable and less scripted you'd almost certainly find the healers would level out even without changes to the jobs.. because it'd be imposiible to know exactly how many heals your going to need in the next 2 minutes and exactly when you're going to need them. so that extra power a whm offers would actually see some use. scholars would be more conservative with there stacks. and even noct asts with there instant shields would have the chance to shine when an unpredictable tank buster starts going off.

would change tanks too. if they've had to burn all there cooldowns in 30 seconds are they going to stay in dps stance and hope they don't need more. swap with the other tank or enter defensive stance just in case another big hit comes out of no where...

so many of the problems jobs have in this game come down to content being so laughably predictable and scripted..

[Jinzhu]

So much this. Cards are supposed to add this element of choice to the kit that makes up for a lot of fast casts/instant cast tools and general strength of the AST healer kit, but it's simply not there because of how binary the buffs are. A SCH at least has to think about using their stacks, and even in a raid situation sometimes you have to compensate with your stack usage to get your group out of a tight spot, no matter how well you plan out the encounter. AST doesn't have to do that with cards - there's never a time where you think, "I'll forego AOE Balance here for AOE Bole instead because [reasons]", making the whole concept of 'juggling' AST cards complete hogwash for the most part.

I replied to a post a bit below yours about how I don't agree with that. I think AST has to think more than any other job. As a SCH main you aren't really thinking about your aetherflow stacks and after you map out the fight your stacks are consistent and you generally won't use them outside of the mapped spots. Most of the time you're dumping all your stacks into trick attack in the form of Energy Drain. Trying to get 3 Energy Drains under trick. Bio > Energy Drain > Broil > Miasma 2 > Energy Drain + Swiftcast > Broil > oGCD + Energy Drain. Not much else to think about stacks there. Even if you aren't in a kind of environment where you can utilize that there's still not too much to think about because you should know the threshold on where you need to dump the rest of your stacks because Aetherflow is coming off CD.

[loreleidiangelo]

I replied to a post a bit below yours about how I don't agree with that. I think AST has to think more than any other job. As a SCH main you aren't really thinking about your aetherflow stacks and after you map out the fight your stacks are consistent and you generally won't use them outside of the mapped spots. Most of the time you're dumping all your stacks into trick attack in the form of Energy Drain. Trying to get 3 Energy Drains under trick. Bio > Energy Drain > Broil > Miasma 2 > Energy Drain + Swiftcast > Broil > oGCD + Energy Drain. Not much else to think about stacks there. Even if you aren't in a kind of environment where you can utilize that there's still not too much to think about because you should know the threshold on where you need to dump the rest of your stacks because Aetherflow is coming off CD.

And outside of managing multiple Lords during a Trick Attack window the AST card system has no more depth than sacking Energy Drains when Aetherflow is about to come off CD. It's a moot point for both classes, but at least SCHs have more than two damage buttons as part of their regular rotation and a fairy to micro-manage to at least SOMEWHAT up the skill floor.

EDIT: To clarify a bit, yes, at the top .1% of the playerbase you're generally going to be using more mental overhead to plot out optimal AST card timing compared to just straight-up AOEing everything that can be remotely perceived as a DPS increase and calling it a day. In those scenarios, AST is likely harder than SCH to play, because on top of that you're never going to need to use unplanned SCH stacks in an emergency to cover mistakes, either. But even among the Savage-clearing playerbase (of which I was a part until pretty recently), your scenario isn't the common one and for the other 99.9% of the playerbase AST is too faceroll for too much utility and healing, with a surprisingly strong card system given how little elements of actual choice exist within it.

tl;dr in my opinion even a mediocre AST can achieve tons of value with only a rudimentary clue on how to optimize the card system, whereas a mediocre SCH is a lot more easy to discern. Whether they tweak the card system to give actual elements of choice to it or simply nerf AST's bongos healing so that they at least have to work a little harder on the healing front, I'd like to see something done about the class, though I do admit it's unlikely given that SE has been terrified to hit it with nerf bats due to it's insanely underwhelming release (and subsequent attached stigma).

[EaMett]

I suppose it's a matter of scale. If we take AST as being well balanced for current content (so 100%) I see WHM as being perhaps 70% (and only even that high because of their performance in Ultimate which really is admirable) and SCH being about 130% with the extent to which they can ignore virtually all GCD healing. Our choices are buffing WHM by an absolutely massive amount to reach SCH while also buffing AST in both sects or bringing the bottom up and the top down. I think the latter is the better option for the sake of the longevity of content.

SCH being able to ignore virtually all GCD healing is what currently allows SCH to rDPS as much as AST (which btw is only a thing because of how AST complements the SCH toolkit as someone mentioned earlier). If AST is 100% then SCH is 100%. Yes SCH's oGCD game makes for a different gameplay but the end result is the same rDPS.
Saying SCH is better because they spend less time healing than AST is beyond the point. It's not like they use that extra DPS uptime to pull away from AST, they use it to keep up with AST.